Zelkova / Chinese elm?

[Brockie1996]

Good evening!

Today I purchased my second tree, sold as a “Zelkova” which I presume to be Zelkova Serrata? I have also been told that it is in fact a Chinese elm. I’m just trying to gather some more definite information on exactly what it is.

Regarding repotting, I have read online that it may now be too late to repot this tree giving the fact is in now in leaf? The soil is not very well draining at all which is a tad concerning! The water pools on top for a good 5 seconds before draining through, I’m thinking I may have to submerse this in water to water from the bottom?

The base of the trunk and root system is very interesting too, I’m thinking of maybe trying to turn it into a root over rock type if this is possible?

For now I’m going to let it acclimate and settle in, thank you for any advice I can get in advance!

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Welcome to the site, my friend! That is a Chinese elm... and it almost looks like it has variegated leaves(?)

Watering is an art form that takes time to develop - particularly with dense organic soil. In the case of your tree, you can definitely still repot this year as long as you are gentle and don't aggressively trim the roots. You should never have to soak a tree to water it - that is a sign that the soil is bad. Rather, you should be able to water your tree and the water should almost instantly disappear into the surface of the soil while any excess spills out the bottom of the pot. This will happen if you have a good open soil mix - whether you are using 100% pine bark fines or 100% pumice. Sadly, many of these trees come in potting soil, which might initially be open, but relatively quickly turns into a solid mass that you would normally expect to find at the bottom of a peat bog

 

[Brockie1996]

Welcome to the site, my friend! That is a Chinese elm... and it almost looks like it has variegated leaves(?)

Watering is an art form that takes time to develop - particularly with dense organic soil. In the case of your tree, you can definitely still repot this year as long as you are gentle and don't aggressively trim the roots. You should never have to soak a tree to water it - that is a sign that the soil is bad. Rather, you should be able to water your tree and the water should almost instantly disappear into the surface of the soil while any excess spills out the bottom of the pot. This will happen if you have a good open soil mix - whether you are using 100% pine bark fines or 100% pumice. Sadly, many of these trees come in potting soil, which might initially be open, but relatively quickly turns into a solid mass that you would normally expect to find at the bottom of a peat bog

Thank you so much for your reply and thank you for clarifying these things for me!

I have a tiger bark ficus that I purchased a couple of months back, I repotted that into a mix of Akadama, pumice and lava rock. That tree is thriving now! It also came in that horrible potting soil but that did drain well still. This stuff my Chinese elm is in is really not draining well at all.

I have ordered another bag of the bonsai soil mix ready to repot it hopefully by the end of this week coming!

In regards to how to the root system looks, with bonsai soil will I be able to remove most of that peat moss substance from the base of the trunk, giving those roots at the base a more exposed look? Or should I sink the tree further into the pot to bring the soil level to the base of the tree?

I’m hoping to give it the best look that It can get, because I will repot it this year and leave it for a good few years to grow out but keep ontop of pruning for better ramification

 

[Orion_metalhead]

yep, chinese elm. its a good candidate for root over rock, since you have all the space below the cutting mark. Otherwise I echo BNut's sentiments.

 

[Shibui]

Make it 3 for Chinese elm.
Some of your UK brethren tell us that Elms are a banned import into the UK so the sellers get round the rules by labelling Chinese elm as Zelkova and hope the quarantine inspectors don't know the difference. Seems to work as we see lots of these mislabelled 'zelkovas' from your side of the pond.

Chinese elm is semi deciduous. In warm conditions it doesn't lose leaves in winter. The old leaves fall as the new ones open up in spring so there's never really a traditional dormant time for these unless you keep them outside in cool conditions.
Growers in semi tropical areas here tell me they got frustrated waiting for their Chinese elms to go dormant so they could repot. Eventually, in desperation, someone tried repotting while the tree had leaves and it survived and thrived. Now they repot whenever it is convenient regardless of whether the tree has leaves.
I guess that's saying you should still be able to repot your Chinese elm if it needs a repot. Don't chop too many roots if possible, just change the soil and trim lightly if required.
It is possible the tree could shed a few leaves. They often do that as a result of stress of delivery and change of conditions and can also do it after repotting but almost always shoot new buds a few weeks later.

Chinese elm roots are quite flexible so getting the roots over a rock might work. When roots are stiff it's much harder to get a good ROR than it initially looks. I would recommend having several rock options on hand when you try as it is surprising how the existing roots just won't quite fit the rocks you have on hand.

 

[rockm]

Chinese elm. It's a pretty common dodge here in the states to use intentionally mislabel imported Chinese elm as zelkova to get around the rules. Chinese elm has stricter import parameters than zelkova, as CE --and CE bonsai--have been a proven vector for invasive insects like Citrus longhorn beetle. The beetle was introduced to the U.S. in a shipment of CE bonsai to a Washington state nursery in 2001.

A side note, other species of invasive species of longhorn beetle have also been found in bonsai. An imported trident maple bonsai had Asian longhorn infestation in Wisconsin in 1999. The tree was imported from Japan or Korea.

 

[Brockie1996]

Thank you all for the replies, some very good information I can’t thank you enough. I’ve attached some pictures of the current root system, which I’m going to work on on Friday as I have some bonsai soil being delivered on Thursday.

I want to keep it at the height it’s at now, so the roots are still exposed like that, just in a fresh soil mix

 

[Brockie1996]

These are roots

 

[Brockie1996]

Make it 3 for Chinese elm.
Some of your UK brethren tell us that Elms are a banned import into the UK so the sellers get round the rules by labelling Chinese elm as Zelkova and hope the quarantine inspectors don't know the difference. Seems to work as we see lots of these mislabelled 'zelkovas' from your side of the pond.

Chinese elm is semi deciduous. In warm conditions it doesn't lose leaves in winter. The old leaves fall as the new ones open up in spring so there's never really a traditional dormant time for these unless you keep them outside in cool conditions.
Growers in semi tropical areas here tell me they got frustrated waiting for their Chinese elms to go dormant so they could repot. Eventually, in desperation, someone tried repotting while the tree had leaves and it survived and thrived. Now they repot whenever it is convenient regardless of whether the tree has leaves.
I guess that's saying you should still be able to repot your Chinese elm if it needs a repot. Don't chop too many roots if possible, just change the soil and trim lightly if required.
It is possible the tree could shed a few leaves. They often do that as a result of stress of delivery and change of conditions and can also do it after repotting but almost always shoot new buds a few weeks later.

Chinese elm roots are quite flexible so getting the roots over a rock might work. When roots are stiff it's much harder to get a good ROR than it initially looks. I would recommend having several rock options on hand when you try as it is surprising how the existing roots just won't quite fit the rocks you have on hand.

Good evening, thank you so much for this reply it is some very useful information! So I went ahead with the repot, I didn’t take too many roots off at all it was just one big thick one which curled around but it had no small feeder roots coming off of it at all. It has plenty of feeder roots and other roots still.

It is now “root over rock” and in bonsai soil (Akadama, Pumice, Lava Rock). The repot was done 5 days ago, since then it has lost a good maybe 70% of its leaves and i don’t know if this is normal at all or if I have done something majorly wrong! It was tied onto the rock with a piece of wire but someone suggested using grafting tape so I’ve used grafting tape instead of the wire.

I’ve attached pictures of it the night of the repot, and currently as it stands today. I’m rather worried about it incase i have accidentally killed it!

 

[Shibui]

The wire is unforgiving. As the roots thicken the wire just digs in and leaves permanent marks. The grafting tape is a little elastic and broader so less likely to leave permanent marks on the roots.

Loss of leaves is common. Might just be the annual leaf drop coinciding with your repot but also likely the tree is reacting to the stress of losing some roots. Do not panic. Even taking off that huge root is not enough to really hurt a Chinese elm. It may have a little sulk but should soon equalise and start to send out new growth

Just make sure you are monitoring soil moisture in the new soil which will need very different watering regime than the old potting soil.

 

[Brockie1996]

The wire is unforgiving. As the roots thicken the wire just digs in and leaves permanent marks. The grafting tape is a little elastic and broader so less likely to leave permanent marks on the roots.

Loss of leaves is common. Might just be the annual leaf drop coinciding with your repot but also likely the tree is reacting to the stress of losing some roots. Do not panic. Even taking off that huge root is not enough to really hurt a Chinese elm. It may have a little sulk but should soon equalise and start to send out new growth

Just make sure you are monitoring soil moisture in the new soil which will need very different watering regime than the old potting soil.

Thank you so much, yeah I agree about the grafting tape! It’s got a nice hold on it so I’ll leave it on there for a while.

The tree has now lost even more leaves, it’s lost a good 90% of all the leaves it had! I’m going to monitor the soil and water when needed, and keep an eye on it for the the coming weeks and watch for new growth coming.

Fingers crossed it bounces back and thrives! I will post updates weekly to check in, I hope it’s survived this repot