Young JBP with too much foliage?

[Dartfrog]

Hi guys, I'm glad to join the community. I've got a JBP that I bought from a nursery, they say it's 4 years old but i doubt it as it's not that big, and I'm a little bit confused because all the posts I see about JBP development show material with less foliage, so my doubt is: should I clear the main trunk from needles in order to identify the tree's buds, and in order to apply wire for the first time? Or what do you think I should do?

I live in Colombia, where there's almost no seasons, and I'm trying to create a shohin sized tree, if that info helps. Thank you so much for your help.

 

[Shogun610]

Let it grow since it’s still young and do nothing for a couple years to let branches develop... you could apply some wire to get that initial bend in the trunk as it grows.

 

[Ryceman3]

There are heaps of great threads with info on how to develop your seedling JBP, particularly many people posting that are part of the "6 year JBP bonsai from seed comp".
You should also check out blogs/websites (bonsai tonight and phutu are two that come to mind) where there are detailed explanations and pictures to reference too.
Your pic shows a seedling that I would say is 2 years old.
I agree fundamentally with @jmmzpsu14 ... let it grow and apply some wire down low if you are that way inclined to accentuate that curve that is already there.
It looks nice and healthy!

 

[Shogun610]

As others mentioned too.. Bonsai tonight is a huge help

 

[sorce]

Welcome to Crazy!

@Clicio , have we heard from @Anthony ?

He would be the guy to talk to I reckon.

Sorce

 

[MrWunderful]

What is this too much foliage? Just kidding, when jbp are young and you want to develop them into impressive shohin, you want as much foliage as possible. Put aggressive movement into it now, as low as possible.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Put aggressive movement into it now, as low as possible.

Hard to do when covered in needles. Could be dwarf cultivar. Seems to show 3/4 years OR flushes of growth and needles pretty short.

 

[Shibui]

@Potawatomi13 is correct. It is quite easy to tell the age of a young JBP. Just need to count each section of growth (cluster of needles then a bare 'neck' section) for each year's growth. There will often be shoots or branches growing from the base of each year's growth. Start at the top as year 1 and count back down the trunk.

Ignore all references to decandling and pulling/cutting needles while the tree is still growing and developing. Those techniques are used to promote ramification and maintain short shoots when the tree is more advanced.
For development the shoots can grow long and every few years cut back to the older needles to get new shoots.
Most JBP growers develop sacrifice branches to encourage more rapid thickening during development stages.
Wiring bends is good, especially for shohin size pines You may also be able to develop using pruning as there appears to be plenty of short shoots down low on the trunk. Pruning is good to get some taper in the trunk. I regularly chop the whole trunk back to the lowest branches to get better taper and new bends.

Feed and water well all year round. In warmer areas JBP never goes fully dormant so feed in winter makes a big difference to spring growth. You may even get 2 or 3 flushes of growth even without pruning or decandling.

 

[Ryceman3]

@Potawatomi13 is correct. It is quite easy to tell the age of a young JBP. Just need to count each section of growth (cluster of needles then a bare 'neck' section) for each year's growth. There will often be shoots or branches growing from the base of each year's growth. Start at the top as year 1 and count back down the trunk.

All true, if the pine only flushes once per year. Given the location of the OP and the fact the needles at the base are still looking very “virile” I would doubt this is in excess of 3 years, more likely 2. A 4 year old pine wouldn’t have needles still viable on the initial flush. I have JBPs of a similar age that are right now sending out a second flush. If they do it here I’m confident this is more than possible in Columbia. The visual signs of growth in one flush and one year look the same.
The pic below is of sub-one year old JBP from seed with 2 clear flushes as an example of what I’m trying to explain. @Potawatomi13 alludes to flushes rather than years in his post, which I think is more likely. It’s tiny for 4 years old.

 

[Shibui]

The visual signs of growth in one flush and one year look the same.

I thought of this as I pressed submit..... Needles should be a good indication of age up to 3 years. I assume that even in warm climates needles will still be viable for 3 years then drop?

 

[Ryceman3]

I thought of this as I pressed submit..... Needles should be a good indication of age up to 3 years. I assume that even in warm climates needles will still be viable for 3 years then drop?

I am assuming the same which is why I feel it can’t be a 4 year old seedling. It seems to be something that remains consistent between environments given what I read in Japan, America, Europe etc...

 

[sorce]

Excuse me @Dartfrog ...

@Shibui or @Leo in N E Illinois or @fredman or anyone else who visits the AusBonsai Forum...
Any sightings of @Anthony cousin "K" on that forum?

Hope them Island Fellers is ok.

Sorce

 

[MrWunderful]

Hard to do when covered in needles. Could be dwarf cultivar. Seems to show 3/4 years OR flushes of growth and needles pretty short.

Perfect time to pull some needles for wiring

 

[Ryceman3]

Excuse me @Dartfrog ...

@Shibui or @Leo in N E Illinois or @fredman or anyone else who visits the AusBonsai Forum...
Any sightings of @Anthony cousin "K" on that forum?

Hope them Island Fellers is ok.

Sorce

@sorce Not for quite some time...

 

[Dartfrog]

Ok, since the title for this post is already looking a bit clickbaity, I'll use it to show the progression on this JBP, and ask away as well haha. I hope I upload the images correctly.

In December I repotted into a colander, without disturbing too much the roots, and wired an inicial shape into the pine, as I'm aiming for a classic informal upright. This is him freshly reppoted:



After that I waited 1 month, and then I started fertilizing with Osmocote and other solid fertilizers monthly.

 

[Dartfrog]

(I split this message in two as the previous one was looking massive in my phone, but it wasn't )

Now for the question, this is him right now:



I'm seeing some interesting growth in lower candles, which will form important branches in the future, however, I'm also seeing this:




Ignoring my magnificent manicure, I'm thinking needlecast, am I right? These days (weeks?) it was raining here in Colombia pretty much every day, so maybe that's the reason. What do you think?

Finally, I want to promote escape roots in order to achieve a thicker trunk, but I live in an apartment, so no backyard, but this was my approach based on local pine growers, does this "colander on a big container" approach seem like it could benefit my pine?



Thanks.

 

[River's Edge]

Consider some root work to develop proper nebari while the tree is till young. Root improvement is much easier with young stock.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Looks to be needlecast or similar. Time for copper/Daconyl spray every couple weeks alternated between the two. And get rid of the crap/use liquid fertilizer.

 

[River's Edge]

And get rid of the crap/use liquid fertilizer.

Unless of course you want to continue with real healthy JBP
Here is a great formulae for organic fertilizer if you want to make your own and ignore the advice so lovingly offered above.
Combine Neem Meal, Bone Meal, Blood Meal and (just for Potawatomi 13) liquid fish fertilizer.
The use of the Neem Meal reduces issues with insects and rodents normally attracted to organics, I have been using it successfully for over a decade. Just do not mix it together in the kitchen unless you live alone and can afford to eat out for weeks at a time.

 

[LanceMac10]

Neem meal? Had to look that one up. Very interesting!