Yet another elm project

[AaronThomas]

I had so much fun with my first ror project I thought I'd give it another go. I saw a composition of an elm on the bonsai4me website awhile back that I always loved.... I picked up a young tree and was going to let it grow for another season but happened across a rock the other day that I thought would be perfect for the project and... well... couldn't wait.


This time I thought ahead and drilled out the bottom of the rock and placed a wire in the hole and placed a wedge over the wire. I sealed up the hole with marine epoxy.


Here are pics of the root-ball before and after untangling.


I think this tree was meant to be... the roots draped over the rock perfect. They almost seem to fit.

 

[AaronThomas]

Pics of my muck (technical term) and the final wrap with electrical tape and movers cellophane.



Finally the planting and the final idea for the tree.... Thinking of air layering the top for a new project but have never tried it before. Thoughts? Thanks!!!!

 

[Mike MoMo]

I really like the rock. Hopefully the cut and air layer work the composition deserves more movement. I am too green to offer advice yet looking forward to the Progression.

 

[fredman]

Not sure if you know this...I learnt the hard way. Be sure to do the layer above that branch, as it can starve the roots if there is no growth beneath the layer...

 

[AaronThomas]

@fredman ... Thanks... I did not know that! I'm thinking maybe best to not do the air layer. Don't want to risk loosing the bottom portion.
@Mike MoMo ... Thanks Mike!

 

[fredman]

Yeah better to leave it for now. You need all the growth you can get to cover the stone with roots. The layer can always be done later...

 

[johng]

Not sure if you know this...I learnt the hard way. Be sure to do the layer above that branch, as it can starve the roots if there is no growth beneath the layer...

That is why all ground layers fail, right? No branches below the layer, so the roots starve?

 

[fredman]

Wrong. The ground layer don't fail, the roots dies, after separation.
Wonderful thing a ground layer. Similar in a way to a salmon swimming upstream to go spawn and die. The salmon being the roots, the hatchling being the newly layered tree...

 

[sorce]

maybe best to not do the air layer.

I don't think you'll lose the bottom....
But you do want all that growth for them roots to get clingy. I'd plan an airlayer for year 2 or 3.

You know that wool pull game....Crossy Road?
They are going to make a bonsai version, Crossy Roots, where you have to dig up your tree and uncross the roots before they cling....

That's just a friendly way of saying, I have left crossed roots, and then they bothered the shit out of me, so I uncrossed them later.....sucks.

Did you leave that one crossed?

Sorce

 

[thumblessprimate1]

I think it's best not to do an air layer not for the reason that you'll lose the bottom, but for the reason that it's using precious time and energy. You could grow from cutting, dig or even buy material like what you'd get from the air layer for relatively low amount of time and money. But the greatest reason not to air layer is that it'll slow you down from reaching your goal, growing that Elm to the rock.

Wrong. The ground layer don't fail, the roots dies, after separation.
Wonderful thing a ground layer. Similar in a way to a salmon swimming upstream to go spawn and die. The salmon being the roots, the hatchling being the newly layered tree...

If what you say is true, then this may be a special case. It's the rootstock of a Japanese maple 'Orange Dream'. I ground layered the Orange Dream with no branches below it. Made the separation last year, early Spring I think. Of course, right now it doesn't have any leaves. Most of the approach grafts have worked out. How well? That's for me to out later this year

 

[M. Frary]

Maybe it's me but I'd just cut it off at the desired height and toss the top.
It's an elm with no redeeming features ou top but another straight section with what looks to be reverse taper.
And something that skinny you will need to cut it lower than the lines shown in the picture.
It would be better if you let it grow to thicken for a few years before you think about any of this anyway.

 

[johng]

Wrong. The ground layer don't fail, the roots dies, after separation.
Wonderful thing a ground layer. Similar in a way to a salmon swimming upstream to go spawn and die. The salmon being the roots, the hatchling being the newly layered tree...

So, I guess in your initial statement you should have clarified that it MIGHT die after the layered is removed...not during the layering process. Even so, you are the one that is wrong...generalizing based on one anecdotal experience.

 

[0soyoung]

We all should know some tree basics. Like the tree lives and grows on the photosynthate produced by the foliage. These are transported down the tree in the phloem or inner bark. All living cells in the tree have vacuoles. Vacuoles store food in the form of starch grains. Starches can be reconverted into sugar (food).

So, think it though.

With a girdle below all foliage, the roots can only live on energy stored in the living cells. The question is how long might this stored food/energy last? My experience (with Atlas cedar and acer palmatum) is that it will last almost two full growing seasons.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

Interesting, Oso. That reminds me of another tree I ground layered. Only with that one, I made the separation in the Fall 2014. Kept the lower portion; it stayed green a for a long while even until the summer of 2015. the lower portion never made it. It never even budded. So it sounds like timing is important.

Anyways, I still don't recommend airlayering this elm. Just grow it out and chop it like Uncle Fester suggested .

 

[fredman]

So, I guess in your initial statement you should have clarified that it MIGHT die after the layered is removed...not during the layering process. Even so, you are the one that is wrong...generalizing based on one anecdotal experience.

LoL this is petty but lets do this the right way. Lets start at the beginning again. This is my initial statement...."Be sure to do the layer above that branch, as it can starve the roots if there is no growth beneath the layer..."
"Do the layer above" suggests the top WILL come off. "CAN starve the roots" suggests the bottom CAN die off. Now one MIGHT be lucky, but that is rarely the case. In this case being a elm the chances are better, but still not worth risking IMHO.
Aaron's response in his next post is "Don't want to risk loosing the bottom portion." That says that he knows exactly what I meant. That proves there was no need in discussing the MIGHT or MIGHT NOTS...
As much as you want to prove me wrong, the fact is there is no right or wrong really...all it was, was a simple observation based on..... YES a "one anecdotal experience", but it will serve me in good stead forever.... (I chose to share that with Aaron to save him the same bad experience.. not confuse the issue by talking about all ground layers failing) an anecdotal experience shared by many over the world. Its not MY experience that makes it true.. that comes down to what Osoyoung explained above.... the message in that is very simple actually. It might be a two year period, but i'll never take that chance again !!!
If there is a wrong here its your initial sarcastic statement about ALL ground layers failing. That can easily confuse any noobs looking for layering information.
If you had better experiences with keeping roots alive, where there is no growth beneath the girdle, I (and the whole bonsai world) would like to hear that....

 

[Tentakelaertje]

If you had better experiences with keeping roots alive, where there is no growth beneath the girdle, I (and the whole bonsai world) would like to hear that....

Grafting something on below the separating point before you separate should keep the roots wide awake, aye?

 

[fredman]

Yeah that's a good option...wish I knew that at the time . Once the graft has taken and provides food to the roots, it can be layered...
I wont risk doing a graft after I done a layer though. Cant see that turning out good..!

 

[sorce]

Anything over about 30% health in this thing will pretty much be safe grounds for stumping it, and it regrowing.

You might be able to torch it too.
Maybe some weed killer.

It'll Probly pop a shitload of buds after you girdle it.

But Damn it....none of it matters with that crossing root!

This tree has infinite futures, but none of them include it untangling that root itself.

@AaronThomas I don't even care if you leave that root crossed....if you like it...you like it, (though I got a twenty on you won't eventually.)
But at least that is worth talking about!

Sorce

 

[fredman]

If what you say is true, then this may be a special case. It's the rootstock of a Japanese maple 'Orange Dream'. I ground layered the Orange Dream with no branches below it. Made the separation last year, early Spring I think. Of course, right now it doesn't have any leaves. Most of the approach grafts have worked out. How well? That's for me to out later this year

I'm the first to admit my horticultural knowledge is limited to say the least. I'm drawing this from my logic bank.....
The key to me is how strong and vigorous the tree is...how much food was stored in the roots, before the layer was done, and how quick the layer takes. Everything changes if buds break beneath the girdle off course.... If for some reason the layer fails the first year, and no buds broke beneath that girdle, the roots most certainly is doomed in the next. Some roots might survive but others dies off. That complicates things even more, because new roots have to be grown at the right places. The tree is weakened to such an extend it might never really recover. It'll survive and compensate but will it ever thrive...? Nah its not worth it IMHO

 

[AaronThomas]

I don't think you'll lose the bottom....
But you do want all that growth for them roots to get clingy. I'd plan an airlayer for year 2 or 3.

You know that wool pull game....Crossy Road?
They are going to make a bonsai version, Crossy Roots, where you have to dig up your tree and uncross the roots before they cling....

That's just a friendly way of saying, I have left crossed roots, and then they bothered the shit out of me, so I uncrossed them later.....sucks.

Did you leave that one crossed?

Sorce

HAHAH! Funny you should mention that....Yes I did leave them crossed. I actually tried to uncross them but the right root had such a large hump...(u shape if you will) I couldn't get it tight to the rock and felt it looked fun.