Winged Elm No. 1

[zeejet]

Still a first-year beginner at the time of this thread, but I figured I should start a few progress journals for some of the trees I’m optimistic about. All feedback is welcome - I’ve learned a lot at this point, but feel free to assume I know nothing!

Here is some context on this Wing Elm:

• Obtained from Keith McKean (Bonsai by Design, Pocola, OK) via 99 Cent Bonsai Auctions on Facebook.
• Tree was collected by Keith in January 2024 and shipped to me (coastal San Diego - Zone 10b) in July 2024
• Trunk caliper at initial soil line is about 1.8”
• Previously chopped with a lot of shoots extending
• Soil appears to be almost entirely organic with a mix of bark and other components - drains very well.

Because it was collected this year and also endured shipping in summer, I have opted to leave it alone to regain vigor for the rest of the growing season here in San Diego. I also wrapped the pot in foil to protect prevent the sun from heating up the black pot and cooking the roots.

New buds have pushed and extension is already underway after about 2 weeks after receiving the tree. It is under full sun currently and seems to handle it just fine. Minor browning is most likely due to shipping stress.

Based on existing structure, I think this will end up being a fairly standard informal upright. The plan next spring is to repot to a larger container (most likely a 12"x12"x3.5" wood grow box - I also have some 15.75"x15.75"x5" Anderson flats but that might be a tad too big). Depending on root health, I may also select a front/leader and cut/carve the stub for more natural taper.

 

[Tieball]

Nice looking tree. A nice mix of branches forming. I totally agree with your let it stabilize and recover well from shipping and its past environment. The 12” x 12” x 3.5” wood box sounds excellent. The other flat is just too large.

 

[johng]

An excellent species for bonsai. Tough and ramifies beautifully. I would be hesitant to rush it into typical bonsai soil. I find they develop much more quickly in a quality potting soil for container plants. Once your primary, and maybe even secondary branches, are where and how you want them then it will be time to manage growth through the use of bonsai soil. This species typically grows where there is a fair dormant period in winter. I would suggest leaving it fully exposed in winter in your climate.

 

[BrianBay9]

Nice starter tree. Very good choice.

 

[Hartinez]

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[Hartinez]

I picked a similar tree from Keith a few years back. Here’s my progression so far. Figured it may help. I’m currently thickening the roots I ground layered last year.

Post in thread 'Winged elm Acquisition'

May 28, 2024

If you're still looking to ID it, if it is a cedar elm, the flowering will give it away. I believe they're the only native elms to flower in the fall rather than the spring.

• Goodbrake

• 

 

[bray]

I saw that tree and you hit the BIN button before I could. Liked the lower bend. Congrats and will be watching your development. And kicking myself for being slow to hit the button.
Don't feel bad for me I got similar one (just not as nice a bend in the lower trunk) from him a week ago I am happy with.

 

[zeejet]

An excellent species for bonsai. Tough and ramifies beautifully. I would be hesitant to rush it into typical bonsai soil. I find they develop much more quickly in a quality potting soil for container plants. Once your primary, and maybe even secondary branches, are where and how you want them then it will be time to manage growth through the use of bonsai soil. This species typically grows where there is a fair dormant period in winter. I would suggest leaving it fully exposed in winter in your climate.

The bonsai soil vs organic soil debate keeps coming up and I've been told different things by different folks. Is there an explanation of why a wetter organic mix is favorable for growth? Also, we never get frost temperatures here in San Diego (especially by the coast) so all of my trees, even the tropicals, stay outdoors year round(no need to overwinter at all).

I picked a similar tree from Keith a few years back. Here’s my progression so far. Figured it may help. I’m currently thickening the roots I ground layered last year.

Post in thread 'Winged elm Acquisition'

May 28, 2024

If you're still looking to ID it, if it is a cedar elm, the flowering will give it away. I believe they're the only native elms to flower in the fall rather than the spring.

• Goodbrake

• 

Thanks for linking your thread - it'll definitely help inform my development! I skimmed through most of the posts and few of the other members here seem fixated on whether or not its a cedar elm haha. Developmentally it doesn't seem like a huge difference as both are corky Ulmus species native to the South and Southeast.

I saw that tree and you hit the BIN button before I could. Liked the lower bend. Congrats and will be watching your development. And kicking myself for being slow to hit the button.
Don't feel bad for me I got similar one (just not as nice a bend in the lower trunk) from him a week ago I am happy with.

Haha, glad it worked out - Keith does seem to consistently collect and sell winged elms so there's always an opportunity to grab one. Best of luck with yours as well!

 

[johng]

so all of my trees, even the tropicals, stay outdoors year round(no need to overwinter at all).

This will make keeping temperate trees very difficult for you longterm. Temperate trees need a dormancy period...no matter how much humans think we can out logic this need it still remains. You should speak with other bonsai folks in your area and find out what works and doesn't work in your climate. Its likely tropicals will be the only trees that thrive...

 

[johng]

The bonsai soil vs organic soil debate keeps coming up and I've been told different things by different folks.

you are the only person that can clarify this debate for your given circumstances... In general, there are two phases to deciduous bonsai development (conifers are another story)...in the first phase you are trying to build a trunk and root base...this is best done with rapid growth and in the ground. If you are going to use a training pot for this stage, organic soil is far superior....less likely to dry out too fast giving the tree the best opportunity to maximize growth. When the trunk and root base are at a girth that is pleasing to you it is time to switch to the second stage, which is often called refinement (note that trunk growth is extremely limited in a bonsai pot)...in this stage you are slowing the tree down and trying to build fine ramification in the branches....no or very limited strong growth. To do this well, you need a rootball with fine roots...this is best accomplished with granular bonsai soil and in a bonsai pot.

 

[Maiden69]

This will make keeping temperate trees very difficult for you longterm. Temperate trees need a dormancy period...no matter how much humans think we can out logic this need it still remains. You should speak with other bonsai folks in your area and find out what works and doesn't work in your climate. Its likely tropicals will be the only trees that thrive...

I have seen winged elms in FL, and in the northern areas of Houston where there is no real dormancy period. They do experience some cold, but temps fluctuate a lot. As an elm, I think he should be fine, as they are mostly semi-deciduous and in areas keep their leaves year round. They do slow down during the "cold" season, but I see it as the dormant phase during the heat of the summer.

From the USDA website

Climate​

Within the natural range of winged elm, the climate varies from warm in the South to moderately cold in the North (20). The region is principally within the humid climatic province of the southeastern United States. Annual precipitation averages 1020 to 1520 mm. (40 to 60 in); half or more of this occurs during the growing season, April to September. Throughout the greater portion of the tree's range, the growing season averages from 180 to 300 days, and average annual temperatures are from 13° to 21° C (55° to 70° F). Average annual snowfall is from 38 cm (15 in) in the North to none in the South.

 

[johng]

I have seen winged elms in FL, and in the northern areas of Houston where there is no real dormancy period. They do experience some cold, but temps fluctuate a lot. As an elm, I think he should be fine, as they are mostly semi-deciduous and in areas keep their leaves year round. They do slow down during the "cold" season, but I see it as the dormant phase during the heat of the summer.

That all depends on where it was sourced from... if it came from the south it might be ok...if it came from more northern climates it will likely fail over time. Oklahoma gets significantly colder winters than San Diego. National weather service says OK average winter lows are in the 20's to 30's...I don't suspect San Diego has every gotten that cold let alone averaged those temps. As I am sure you well know, it is difficult at best to manage material from outside your zone. If your material can't thrive, you will never be able to have a successful bonsai. Makes much more sense to make the most of your efforts by focusing on material that thrives in your climate.

 

[Maiden69]

As I am sure you well know, it is difficult at best to manage material from outside your zone. If your material can't thrive, you will never be able to have a successful bonsai.

This is key, I do notice that on some species if I am very careful with protecting the tree and allow it to acclimatize, after 2 years they usually start thriving. I have a few maples from MrMaple and some from MattO, and the ones from MrMaple usually fair better after a year. The ones from MattO usually take 2. I also try to obtain them when they are close to being dormant unless there is a cultivar that is hard to get and it shows up on a sale. I notice that at that time, they fair better than getting a material that is about to wake up in spring. When they shows up in Texas in April the temps and sun intensity is close to what they would endure in the location they are during summer.

But this is only for material that can be obtain in my area, I tried with mugo pines (and I'm sure any alpine material will have the same fate), no matter what care I gave them, after 2-3 years they die.

 

[zeejet]

That all depends on where it was sourced from... if it came from the south it might be ok...if it came from more northern climates it will likely fail over time. Oklahoma gets significantly colder winters than San Diego. National weather service says OK average winter lows are in the 20's to 30's...I don't suspect San Diego has every gotten that cold let alone averaged those temps. As I am sure you well know, it is difficult at best to manage material from outside your zone. If your material can't thrive, you will never be able to have a successful bonsai. Makes much more sense to make the most of your efforts by focusing on material that thrives in your climate.

I guess we'll have to wait and see - plenty of borderline species in my collection currently that I've seen other club members grow successfully while others struggle. San Diego also has several microclimates with various trade offs - not sure why we call the microclimates as they are completely different in my mind.

Further inland, the weather is much hotter and dryer during the summer (often over 100F highs) but average near-freezing temperatures at night in the winter (average 35F lows). Here on the coast, it's more humid with mild summers (75F-80F highs) but also mild winters (45-50F lows). The winter dormancy is the biggest question mark for my microclimate (coastal).

I'm fairly confident most elms should be fine as they are often semi-deciduous and there are plenty of members who grow them well. I'm less sure about maples although Tridents seems to do fine as well. I have a few juvenile Japanese maples and a juvenile prunus mume that I'm not optimistic about but we'll see.

The two keystone species for SoCal seem to be junipers and black pines - both do really well here and are the most represented species at shows, sales, and club demonstrations. Tropicals and broadleaf evergreens show up in collections and demos but rarely at shows here - I think they thrive but they aren't loved the way a good California juniper or black pine might be. I tend to be in agreement - I think they look like shrubs and houseplants.

 

[Dabbler]

great tree, I love me some elm!