I consider them weak because, from what I see, the larger trees are sometimes in congested areas, have thick, longer branching that don't allow for good sunlight transmission, and the trees just don't look healthy. Weak in my book also means they are not good bonsai subjects because of their longer branches with very little/poor back budding, and they will never have interesting bark.
Whitebark Pine yamadori
- Thread starter jevanlewis
- Start date
Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
To me seems you have seen wrong trees. Been to Crater Lake? So many trees there say BONSAI to me. Many other trees have smooth bark and many grow. Just personal taste. These are as God made them. I am content to accept.
Delrious
Seedling
Many of the Whitebark pine seedlings that you see in the Cascades were planted by the forest service, especially in burn areas. The tree's planted by the forest service are actually descendants of a population of pines in the Rocky Mountains that are resistant to blister rust. It is an extensive long term project to repopulate the species. I do not know of any forest service areas that allow this species to be transplanted legally but of course private land is ok...which is rare to non-existent on the west coast at the elevation where these grow naturally. Even the ski areas are typically leased on public land.
There are so many amazing species in the Pacific Northwest for Yamadori that are superior to Whitebark Pine but can be collected legally and ethically... All it would take is one bad story in the news about some "Bonsai guy" poaching Whitebark pines to ruin the party for everyone.
andrewiles
Shohin
It seems to be a theme in these discussions that someone always suggests folks are not following the rules.
I can only speak for myself of course, but when I go to a ranger station, get a permit, and ask clearly what restrictions exist in that area for transplants -- and then follow those rules -- I'm doing my legal and ethical duty.
I'd wager there is not complete consistency between districts, or even rangers within the same office sometimes, but that is not something any of us can work out. But I'd argue that anything we do here, in terms of removing trees, is completely, utterly inconsequential to the health of the forest. It's not even measureable because there are too few of us.
I completely agree though that perceptions matter. Very much. So we all do need to get our permits, verify what's acceptable with the district offices, and otherwise engage with them properly and respectfully. I for one always try to make sure they see me (and us) as respectful users of our public lands.
Delrious
Seedling
>But I'd argue that anything we do here, in terms of removing trees, is completely, utterly inconsequential to the health of the forest.
If anything, collecting yamadori is good for the forest because it removes ladder material from the forest. It's also a drop in the ocean compared to widespread legal logging in national forests. In my opinion, it would be best if the forest service just laid out some general restrictions and allowed citizens to gather as many trees as they want from taxpayer funded lands...similar to how firewood collection is handled. However, digging up an endangered species that is currently undergoing as massive human effort to stop its extinction is unethical and not good for the future of bonsai.
If anything, collecting yamadori is good for the forest because it removes ladder material from the forest. It's also a drop in the ocean compared to widespread legal logging in national forests. In my opinion, it would be best if the forest service just laid out some general restrictions and allowed citizens to gather as many trees as they want from taxpayer funded lands...similar to how firewood collection is handled. However, digging up an endangered species that is currently undergoing as massive human effort to stop its extinction is unethical and not good for the future of bonsai.
Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
When allowed to be dug by legal authorities it seems plainly obvious they do not consider in this area to be endangered species. You beat dead horse to hamburger.
Delrious
Seedling
Got any references for this plainly obvious information?
Endangered and Threatened Wildlife and Plants; Threatened Species Status for Pinus albicaulis (Whitebark Pine) With Section 4(d) Rule
We, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service), propose to list whitebark pine (Pinus albicaulis), a high-elevation tree species found across western North America, as a threatened species under the Endangered Species Act of 1973 (Act), as amended. If we finalize this rule as proposed, it would...
www.federalregister.gov
Delrious
Seedling
OFWO - Whitebark Pine
The USFWS Oregon Fish and Wildlife Office works closely with our partners in Oregon and neighboring states to conserve fish, wildlife, plants and habitat.
www.fws.gov
Did someone infer that I was a "poacher" for collecting some Whitebark pines? Typical of how some of these threads go. There are people on here who know and are fairly quiet, and then there are those who think they know and just run off at the mouth just to be heard, all the while presenting false information. The last permit I got here, there were no restrictions on anything. For the most part, the local people in charge of the rules, permits etc, don't know one tree from the other! They set up rules that make no sense at all...eg: they regulate when the permits can be issued and will not issue them if they think there is "to much snow" on the ground at higher elevations because they are afraid that one will tear up their roads. By the time they decide that it's ok to issue permits, all the Larch/Pines etc at the lower levels are already beyond the collecting period and the sparse populations up higher are iffy. Then they issue a permit for only 30 days, when 2 years ago I got one that was good from early spring through late fall. It makes no sense and it is determined by the local people in charge who may or may not understand anything about collecting trees. Some of the people making decisions feel like they need to be in control, in charge, when they have no idea how to do that. If they spent their time developing a rust resistant tree and spreading the seeds of those with a helicopter late in the fall on top of early snows, the white bark would be way better off. Planting seedlings in the late spring or summer when the moisture has left, or is leaving the ground is a waste of time IMO. The seedlings have been in a controlled, moist environment in some nursery and they are jerked out of there and jammed into the mostly dry, or rocky ground and expected to live the rest of the season and be excited about being alive the next spring?? I doubt very much that 90+% make it through the summer. Always remember, this is the US government, know for wasting more time and more money on useless projects than any other organization on earth. I have experienced that first hand many times!
Will I collect Whitebark pine if it is legal...probably not! And if I did, do I think it would affect the the population one iota, hell no!
Will I collect Whitebark pine if it is legal...probably not! And if I did, do I think it would affect the the population one iota, hell no!
Delrious
Seedling
"Hey I found a ranger who has no clue and he gave me a permit and said I could collect whatever I want!" does not mean it is is legal. You are right, the forest service can be very subjective, but just because you manage to find that guy who doesn't get it doesn't make it legal or OK.
Having spent the last seven months working with the forest service on a documentary about Whitebark pine, I can tell you that you are 100% wrong and should just delete this thread before it encourages more people to collect an endangered species make it harder for all of us to collect anything. It is not good for the community to even have open discussions about it as it gives "them" something to point at when they decide to shut us down. I don't feel like I need to be in charge. I am an avid Yamadori collector and want to continue to be able to do so legally for the foreseeable future.
This is how you get more government regulation, is people doing what you are doing.
Delrious
Seedling
>Planting seedlings in the late spring or summer when the moisture has left, or is leaving the ground is a waste of time IMO. The seedlings have been in a controlled, moist environment in some nursery and they are jerked out of there and jammed into the mostly dry, or rocky ground and expected to live the rest of the season and be excited about being alive the next spring??
Yeah they do fine...That's why you are able to find seedlings that you dig up and try to keep alive. You don't think that they study yield rates? The forest service has been doing this as long as you have been alive. Please insult them some more on a public forum where you advocate poaching an endangered species on public lands.
Hell why even go up to the mountains, just go to their nursery and break in and steal them from here...saves them the time and money of replanting them 400 miles away just so you can dig them up.
Yeah they do fine...That's why you are able to find seedlings that you dig up and try to keep alive. You don't think that they study yield rates? The forest service has been doing this as long as you have been alive. Please insult them some more on a public forum where you advocate poaching an endangered species on public lands.
Hell why even go up to the mountains, just go to their nursery and break in and steal them from here...saves them the time and money of replanting them 400 miles away just so you can dig them up.
Attachments
andrewiles
Shohin
It would be nice to have a civil discussion here, on both sides. We're all adults, right?
@Delrious, great to hear about the documentary. I'd love to see it if it is public and available.
I glanced at your links above. It sounds like the species is proposed as threatened. Not officially so. If I read that right then the claim that collecting is illegal seems dubious. And while I get the argument about a clueless ranger giving incorrect permission, that certainly does not imply improper behavior on the part of the person trying to do the right thing by getting a permit from the presumed authority.
But I get it. We want to protect our trees and our forests. At the end of the day some official government designation is not the most important thing. When requesting permits I've been asking "which species are not allowed". The next time I request a permit I'll specifically ask about whitebark pine. And if the person I'm talking to doesn't know, I'll ask that they check with their silviculturist.
I _still_ maintain that you, and I, and the other 10s(?) of bonsai enthusaists in the PWN willing to go out and (legally) dig up high elevation pines have absolutely no bearing on the future success of the species. The math is easy. But as I mentioned before I fully appreciate the need to support the forest service and conservation efforts and I will not collect something that they do not approve.
@Delrious, great to hear about the documentary. I'd love to see it if it is public and available.
I glanced at your links above. It sounds like the species is proposed as threatened. Not officially so. If I read that right then the claim that collecting is illegal seems dubious. And while I get the argument about a clueless ranger giving incorrect permission, that certainly does not imply improper behavior on the part of the person trying to do the right thing by getting a permit from the presumed authority.
But I get it. We want to protect our trees and our forests. At the end of the day some official government designation is not the most important thing. When requesting permits I've been asking "which species are not allowed". The next time I request a permit I'll specifically ask about whitebark pine. And if the person I'm talking to doesn't know, I'll ask that they check with their silviculturist.
I _still_ maintain that you, and I, and the other 10s(?) of bonsai enthusaists in the PWN willing to go out and (legally) dig up high elevation pines have absolutely no bearing on the future success of the species. The math is easy. But as I mentioned before I fully appreciate the need to support the forest service and conservation efforts and I will not collect something that they do not approve.
Listen dumb ass, if I go down to the local authority, the local US Forest service office, and get a permit and he tells me there are no restrictions on what I collect, then that's the END of my research. How am I supposed to know, or even begin to question or doubt that what he just told me is incorrect? Maybe you have the time to run around and question the authorities, and make sure they gave you the correct answer but I do not! Now go back to work and do something sensible to save the planet!
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Delrious
Seedling
Listen you sweet old boomer that reminds me of my dad, you are spewing out misinformation into a misinformation echo chamber and getting angry because someone just stepped in and turned off the reverb.
1. Collecting Whitebark pine on forest service land is illegal.
2. Propagating misinformation that it is in in fact legal will make other people in this echo chamber assume that it is legal (see other threads where you have discussed this and other people were encouraged and went out and collected them too).
3. Even if no one went out and collected a single tree as a result, the very fact that this is being discussed on a public forum could lead to very bad sentiment towards the Bonsai community that could result in collecting bans altogether. The forest service is understaffed and could easily decide transplant permits are not worth the hassle, most are free anyways.
If you want to do something positive, educated yourself about whitebark pine, the causes of it's decline, and what you can do to help. The forest service has done massive studies on whitebark pine propagation, how to plant, when to plant, yield rates and rate of decline. These two documents are a great starting point.
If anyone reading this wants to know what they can do to help whitebark pine, the best thing that we could do is go out and collect trees. Go find a WB seedling growing on a mountain and clear away any nearby subalpine fir, engelmenn spruce, douglas fir and lodgepole pine, bring them home and post pictures of your awesome trees on Bonsainut.
Here's a few good places to start educating yourself:
I will not continue this with you
Delirious...I will not continue this with you. You're way to stupid and uninformed for me. BYE
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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None of your references say that collecting whitebark pine is illegal. None of your references say that the whitebark pine has been added to the endangered species listings in the Lacey Act. Therefore, the collecting of whitebark pine is NOT illegal, except by local Park rules. On BML land, and National Forest lands, if the local land authority issues a collecting permit, it IS LEGAL.
There is a big difference between an article saying a certain habitat is endangered and it ACTUALLY BEING LISTED. No species were added by Congressional amendment to the Lacey Act during the Trump administration. You are out of line. Wishing collecting were illegal does not make it illegal. It takes an act of Congress and that has not happen for quite some time. The Lacey Act is the only vehicle for enforcement of the UN Endangered Species Red Listing, as the Lacey Act governs trade in animals and plants. So do your homework. Just because a university publication says some this or that, does not make it USA law.
Delrious
Seedling
That's nice. Anyways, I stand by everything that I said. Have a nice day!
Delrious
Seedling
Dawg, I got bad news for you:
"Deliberate or incidental transplant of any USFWS threatened, endangered, or candidate species or any USFS Region 2 sensitive species is PROHIBITED. Knowledge of these species is the permittee’s responsibility."
Here's the "candidate species" list:
Delrious
Seedling
Is there a mod around who can please delete this thread? Would probably be best for the community if it didn't exist. Probably want to take down the other threads about collecting Whitebark pine too.
Delrious
Seedling
Oh and here's the Oregon State law that prohibits the collection of Candidate Species for the Endangered list:
www.law.cornell.edu
