Where to cut off top?

[Jrmcmich]

So have an American elm air layer that I started almost 7 weeks back. Roots are starting to fill in nicely and just looking for feedback on how much top to leave when cutting?

I will want to probably reduce trunk size to develop taper and assume not to do that until next year and assume to leave some top to continue to develop roots after separation. Not looking to separate yet but just hoping for help to know where to cut.

Fyi the tree is probably 9’ above air layer or possibly more which I dont want to keep all that as assume roots would struggle to feed that entire top. Hopefully pics show air layer and tree top for reference of height.

Tree before air layer

 

[Shibui]

You are correct about that being a bit much for just a few roots to look after so definitely need to chop the trunk when you separate the layer but I'm torn between chopping hard and leaving some leaves to feed the roots.
Because it is an elm I would probably go the full chop and cross fingers. On the plus side it is an elm.

 

[Jrmcmich]

You are correct about that being a bit much for just a few roots to look after so definitely need to chop the trunk when you separate the layer but I'm torn between chopping hard and leaving some leaves to feed the roots.
Because it is an elm I would probably go the full chop and cross fingers. On the plus side it is an elm.

Thanks for advice. How late in season would you recommend to cut it to allow roots to establish more before frost?

 

[Shibui]

That is the dilemma. Enough time for new growth before dormancy. Enough time to push roots before dormancy. I would have no problem chopping and separating any time but winters here are not Ohio winters.
Here, if I was not sure, I would just leave it intact over winter and separate in spring but that may not be possible for you.
Here, I could chop and separate knowing the winter is short and , being an elm, it would recover in spring anyway. Not sure if that will work for you because I have never experienced cold winter.

The question is how attached are you to this? Personally I can't see a great bonsai in that branch inside 10 years, probably more. My experiences are that what looks good on the tree is less attractive when it is in a pot and after a couple of years we wonder why we bothered. Air layer may give us a thick trunk but please do not confuse thick trunk with great bonsai.

Willing to take a chance and see what works? - see above (you won't lose much if it doesn't work).

Maybe wait for someone with similar winters to offer more specific advice?
Sorry I can't be more specific.

 

[Jrmcmich]

That is the dilemma. Enough time for new growth before dormancy. Enough time to push roots before dormancy. I would have no problem chopping and separating any time but winters here are not Ohio winters.
Here, if I was not sure, I would just leave it intact over winter and separate in spring but that may not be possible for you.
Here, I could chop and separate knowing the winter is short and , being an elm, it would recover in spring anyway. Not sure if that will work for you because I have never experienced cold winter.

The question is how attached are you to this? Personally I can't see a great bonsai in that branch inside 10 years, probably more. My experiences are that what looks good on the tree is less attractive when it is in a pot and after a couple of years we wonder why we bothered. Air layer may give us a thick trunk but please do not confuse thick trunk with great bonsai.

Willing to take a chance and see what works? - see above (you won't lose much if it doesn't work).

Maybe wait for someone with similar winters to offer more specific advice?
Sorry I can't be more specific.

Not too attached. It was a weird tree at back of my property and wanted to try air layer a larger tree. In sure your right about not being a great tree although I dont have anything “great” anyways I also don’t mind taking a risk so if that’s the case seems like doing a larger chop amd see if it responds? Any suggestions where to do that chop?

 

[BrianBay9]

You have half of your growing season left. You have a pretty good set of roots now. If it were me, I'd harvest now and chop the top to the lowest leaves. Looks like that will be too high initially, but it will give the tree some incentive to pop lower on the trunk. Final chop in late autumn.

 

[ponderingsage]

Here is an example of a Siberian elm that I dug and stump cut to just a few inches. First photo is early and 2nd photo was probably two weeks ago.
I share this as an example of how elms will push from bare wood and the cut site pretty aggressively.
I would recommend whether you let it sit until spring or cut it now to cut it way back as it looks like that section above the layer is pretty straight.
Good luck

 

[sorce]

You can probably do whatever and it will make it, except, at some point it'll look like it's gonna die and you'll kill it trying to "rescue" it.

You have plenty of time to grow more roots till fall. The problem is, the thing containing them.

Gonna have a mass of uselessness in that old bag.

I'd "repot" it in the sky. Give it more room to grow more and better roots in, then leave it for as long as possible.

I've left elms exposed to -28F and humans are weak. Elms not so much.

No worries about leaving it till next summer. Unless you leave it in that old bag.

Yeah, summer. Spring repotting is for losers. Gangsters repot in summer. Lessin you're south south Ohio.
Round this latitude, summer repot all day.

Elms don't die. We kill them.

Sorce

 

[Jrmcmich]

That is the dilemma. Enough time for new growth before dormancy. Enough time to push roots before dormancy. I would have no problem chopping and separating any time but winters here are not Ohio winters.
Here, if I was not sure, I would just leave it intact over winter and separate in spring but that may not be possible for you.
Here, I could chop and separate knowing the winter is short and , being an elm, it would recover in spring anyway. Not sure if that will work for you because I have never experienced cold winter.

The question is how attached are you to this? Personally I can't see a great bonsai in that branch inside 10 years, probably more. My experiences are that what looks good on the tree is less attractive when it is in a pot and after a couple of years we wonder why we bothered. Air layer may give us a thick trunk but please do not confuse thick trunk with great bonsai.

Willing to take a chance and see what works? - see above (you won't lose much if it doesn't work).

Maybe wait for someone with similar winters to offer more specific advice?
Sorry I can't be more specific.

Well @Shibui i went ahead not long after recommendation to go big or go home and made drastic cut. Not sure it will live which is fine as just learning air layer technique and continue to keep trees alive. Roots really were only on one side and there were bugs in roots when I cut which I tried to drown with water and cleaned out entire rooots which wasn’t that bad.

Will see if it lives and part of deciding factor to remove as much trunk as I did was bc when I started cutting top off the weight of tree ripped half bark off so had to go low anyways

 

[Shibui]

Will see if it lives

I have every confidence - because it is an elm. The new sprouts are a great sign. I would also expect masses of buds to emerge from the cambium all around the edges of those cuts.
It will be interesting to see what you end up doing with this stump to mitigate the large wounds.

part of deciding factor to remove as much trunk as I did was bc when I started cutting top off the weight of tree ripped half bark off so had to go low anyways

Traps for newer players. Experienced arborists cut part way through on one side before completing the cut from the opposite side to reduce chances of bark tearing. Another option I use is to chop higher first to get rid of much of the weight then make the final cut at desired height so there's less weight and leverage to tear the bark.
I suspect the lower than planned cut is actually a blessing. Most newbies leave trunks way too long so they end up with a trunk with no taper or scale.

 

[Jrmcmich]

Traps for newer players. Experienced arborists cut part way through on one side before completing the cut from the opposite side to reduce chances of bark tearing. Another option I use is to chop higher first to get rid of much of the weight then make the final cut at desired height

Smart and I definitely learned that hard way but was planning to cut fairly hard but not quite that hard. Thanks again for tips

 

[Jrmcmich]

Just a little update on this elm. Even after large cut back on tree seemed to sprout decent growth afterwards. Will just let it grow out probably next year as well before cutting anything