When to perform major chop on this JBP?

[TimIAm]

Today I purchased this JBP Kyokko Nishiki from a nursery. If this were anything but a pine I would know what I was doing. When it comes to pines I'm still a beginner. I've done a lot of reading and video watching over the past 12 months, but I have almost no experience, so still likely to say or do something wrong.



I'd say this tree wasn't decandled the previous season. Being in the southern hemisphere, today when I brought this home I decandled on the lower branches that I intend to keep and removed some needles on the two upper branches.

I'd like advice to confirm if my approach sounds reasonable and secondly, I'd like to know when is the right time to do this work because I'm concerned if I do cut the two upper "sacrifice" branches that I would be removing at least 60% of the foliage on this tree.



What is in my head:

• Want to remove the two sacrifice branches because my understanding is that you should remove sacrifice branches before they have the possibility of making too large a scar.
• I'm reasonably happy with the thickness of the trunk. But my understanding is pot sacrifice removal, I can begin growing a new sacrifice.
• Below the cut point I've indicated in the picture above, I have not removed any needles, I'm expecting I can get some new buds near or below the cut site on these branches?
• The picture isn't very clear but there are 5 smaller branches below the cut site, aiming to begin building ramification and branching from these lower branches.
• I haven't looked at or touched the roots. Considering the work that needs to do above, if this were your tree, when would you touch the roots or consider a repot? Last year I bought my first pine a Yatsabusa that I managed to kill within 10 weeks, I think because I repot and heavily pruned at the same time. I want to avoid killing this tree. I am committed to go slowly.

Thanks.

 

[Shibui]

I have not worked with this particular cultivar but all pines respond in a similar manner so should be OK to treat it as normal JBP.
You can grow as many sacrifice branches as you want - at the same time or one after another so no problem chopping these off and letting another go for more thickening or thickening in specific areas.
Well done on not removing needles where you want new buds. Buds can form on bare areas but grow much easier where there are healthy needles. New buds do not form at the cut ends but will grow from the needles below the cuts. looking at the growth it appears to be a good year to prune those branches. Needles live for 3 years on JBP so it is likely those lower needles will die and drop next summer.
Pines can be pruned any time of year and still produce good new buds.
Pruning in winter: new buds will be delayed until spring. New candles will be strong.
Pruning in spring: new buds will appear quickly. New candles will be strong.
Pruning early summer: new buds will appear quickly. New candles will be shorter.
Pruning late summer: new buds may form but not open until the following spring. New candles will be strong when they grow in spring.
Pruning autumn: new buds delayed until spring (except in warm areas). New candles in spring will be strong.

Pines typically need good strong shoots to help new root growth so root prune and top reduction at the same time may not be good. Better to do one or the other first then follow with the second. Probably does not matter in which order but if the soil and roots appear Ok I would probably prune first (just because the cuts marked are at oldest needles which are likely to die and fall next summer) then follow with repot the following spring.

 

[TimIAm]

Thanks Shibui for the detailed reply. Much appreciated.

I will aim to do work this season and look at the roots next year. I am quite confident it is quite healthy and no urgent need to repot.

Can anyone comment on whether or not removing both of the sacrifice branches is too much to remove at once?

 

[Shibui]

It is a lot of growth gone but I've done more than that in one go and had no problem. Provided there are some good healthy needles and/or some lower shoots to take over there should be no problem.
I find that trees don't give up easily. They usually find a way to survive despite what nature or we throw at them.

 

[CaptColin]

I see where you drew where you plan to cut the leaders back. My question is do you have a plan for the finished trunk line and eventual pad placement? Great tree so far!

 

[TimIAm]

I see where you drew where you plan to cut the leaders back. My question is do you have a plan for the finished trunk line and eventual pad placement? Great tree so far!

Thanks for asking. Below is a better photo of what I'm working with. Aside from the 2 sacrifice branches which I could still use, there are 7 smaller branches coming from that lower area.

There is a very small bud just underneath the left branch which would look really nice if it had 5 years growth and if I used it, it would mean removing the whole branch above which does have 5 or so years good growth and reasonable taper.

For the other sacrifice on the right hand side, about an inch up from the where the other branches are it starts to lose taper. I've also thought about completely removing this sacrifice. But the lack of taper wouldn't be that bad if I went for a slightly taller tree and created some new branching from the top of that sacrifice.

 

[TimIAm]

I performed the chop as discussed above on Dec 19 last year. I have some small concern about the health of the tree and if I need to do anything. I may be overreacting because I removed all of the new growth, what is left is mostly old needles so the needles don't look all that good.

- Current year's growth was happy and healthy
- Got enough new buds that I am happy I can progress with a good design if all is well
- New buds look healthy

In the picture in the previous post above, on the purple cut line I indicated on the right hand side, I am getting some needle dieback below that line, but I was expecting I would get some dieback.


I'm posting a bunch of photos below to try and provide a good idea of what the needles are looking like.

Can anyone suggest if I should be concerned (and possibly what I can do)? In the Aus Bonsai forum it was suggested to use a copper based fungicide for needle cast, if it's fungal.

This tree was bought amongst a batch of about 30 black pines which all appeared happy and healthy. I have not done a repot or any other major work (haven't removed it from its pot to see the roots yet). I've been growing pines from seed for the past 2 years and I am using a similar watering routine as the seedlings. The current soil appears well draining and I believe is adequate until I was hoping next Spring in Australia.

 

[TimIAm]

Just looking at this tree this afternoon, I have a good feeling it's dying. Not sure what I could have done differently. I didn't seal the cuts because they were not bleeding significant amounts of sap. The buds still look green and healthy but almost all of the needles look like they are borderline ready to give up. I'm guessing the chop was just too much for it.

 

[Shibui]

I can't see anything to be worried about in the photos. A couple of brown bands on a few needles that could be fungal but not enough to hurt the tree.
The new shoots look good.
It was a big chop. Right back to the older needles. There's no problem with that but those 2 year old needles are reaching the end of their natural life and summer is the time they usually decline and drop. The chop can't save needles that are due to die. They will drop as normal. All we can hope for is a few more new buds to take over and keep the main branches alive.
Worst case is you regrow the tree from the few shoots that are already growing. Best case is a few more new buds emerge and you'll have more options.
I certainly would not have done anything different with this tree.

 

[TimIAm]

I can't see anything to be worried about in the photos. A couple of brown bands on a few needles that could be fungal but not enough to hurt the tree.
The new shoots look good.
It was a big chop. Right back to the older needles. There's no problem with that but those 2 year old needles are reaching the end of their natural life and summer is the time they usually decline and drop. The chop can't save needles that are due to die. They will drop as normal. All we can hope for is a few more new buds to take over and keep the main branches alive.
Worst case is you regrow the tree from the few shoots that are already growing. Best case is a few more new buds emerge and you'll have more options.
I certainly would not have done anything different with this tree.

Thanks Shibui,

I could be over worried. I'm trying to learn something from the experience even if it doesn't work out. I just find pines to be layers more difficult than everything else. I've got some trees I've kept alive for over 20 years, but I only need to look at a pine for it to fall over.

Thanks for the encouragement.

 

[JeffS73]

It's a big chop, but at the right time, JBP should be fine with it. In fact, I would be more worried that it bounces back with overly strong growth, super leggy candles and useless internode length. Look up Jonas Dupuichs blog posts or reducing sacrifices, you need to refocus growth but also make sure there's an 'out' for excess energy.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Thanks Shibui for the detailed reply. Much appreciated.

I will aim to do work this season and look at the roots next year. I am quite confident it is quite healthy and no urgent need to repot.

Can anyone comment on whether or not removing both of the sacrifice branches is too much to remove at once?

If trunk not as big as desired keep strongest sacrifice until it is.