When Safe To De-Leaf?

[jimlau]

I want to do a thread graft on a Japanese maple. When are the next generation of buds mature enough so that when leaves are cut, the next generation of buds will sprout?

Thanks

PS I know this is not an ideal time of year.

 

[19Mateo83]

Generally thread grafts are done in spring before bud swell.

 

[jimlau]

Generally thread grafts are done in spring before bud swell.

Yes, as I said, it's not ideal. But it can be done during the growing season. Just wondering whe. Does the branch have to harden some, like turn wood-like?

 

[99 Mile Creek]

Yes, as I said, it's not ideal. But it can be done during the growing season. Just wondering whe. Does the branch have to harden some, like turn wood-like?

Some do it in midsummer. After first growth, though both leaves and branches, as you say, must be 'hardened.'

 

[Paradox]

Why not wait until the best time to do this?
You'll have a better chance of it taking instead of killing the branch by de-leafing it

 

[Dav4]

I’ve done it once… branch died… not sure if it was timing or relative branch strength that failed me. If I were to try again, I’d want to use a strong whip towards the top of the tree and I’d do it as soon as leaves are hardened, and definitely before the summer solstice. With that being said, I only do thread grafts during the winter and before buds start to swell.

 

[Shibui]

I'm pretty sure that buds at the base of the leaves will sprout any time a leaf is removed. Doesn't matter how mature the leaf or the stem is.
My guess is that the failures mentioned are probably due to factors other than the ability of the buds to activate after defoliation.
I'm pretty sure I have seen someone demonstrate or post thread grafting after defoliation but can't recall where or whether there was a positive or negative result.

I'd try it out. The worst that can happen is a failed graft so you try again next spring. Best would be successful graft and a record that says it works.

 

[jimlau]

Yeah, I have a few redundant branches to choose from. So if it dies it won't hurt the over all design. Thanks.

 

[jimlau]

Tridents you can graft any time, right? The secondary buds seem to pop very soon after the original ones leaf.

Actually, how many leaves are there at each node? Seems 6 maybe. If so, when those 6 open, there is nothing left at that node?

 

[Shibui]

Actually, how many leaves are there at each node? Seems 6 maybe. If so, when those 6 open, there is nothing left at that node?

I believe there are infinite possible buds at any node. After pruning I often get 6 or sometimes even more new shoots emerging. At the base of every one of those more potential buds have developed in case any of the shoots are damaged. If those new shoots are pruned again even more clusters of buds will emerge. Every time a shoot starts growing more dormant buds will develop around the base.
I guess there's a physical limit to how many can grow in the limited space at any one time but the point is there will be more dormant buds waiting to take over if required.

 

[bwaynef]

I'd be afraid that defoliating just one branch would weaken it substantially, relative to the rest of the tree, such that the tree just abandons that branch. To counter that possibility, it would probably benefit your goals to partially defoliate the entirety of the tree. I'd do a full POCD. Cut back to two leaves. Cut off one of those leaves. Cut the remaining one in half.

Oh, and fertilize HEAVILY leading up to this, ...and afterwards as well.

Then make sure the threadgrafted branch doesn't get shaded out in the regrowth.

 

[jimlau]

I'd be afraid that defoliating just one branch would weaken it substantially, relative to the rest of the tree, such that the tree just abandons that branch. To counter that possibility, it would probably benefit your goals to partially defoliate the entirety of the tree. I'd do a full POCD. Cut back to two leaves. Cut off one of those leaves. Cut the remaining one in half.

Oh, and fertilize HEAVILY leading up to this, ...and afterwards as well.

Then make sure the threadgrafted branch doesn't get shaded out in the regrowth.

POCD?

My trident is ~ 12". I have the top branch (now leader) at about 6 feet in height, growing untouched to get it thicken up. Sounds like there could be the issue you mentioned, that resources would be used for that leader and not a threaded branch?

I will check later, but I don't think the lower branches are exploding with growth.

 

[pandacular]

I'd be afraid that defoliating just one branch would weaken it substantially, relative to the rest of the tree, such that the tree just abandons that branch. To counter that possibility, it would probably benefit your goals to partially defoliate the entirety of the tree. I'd do a full POCD. Cut back to two leaves. Cut off one of those leaves. Cut the remaining one in half.

This is pretty much exactly what Bjorn recommends in one of his Bonsai Empire videos on thread grafting. He mentions summer time thread grafts on possible, but only on trees that can take a defoliation as a seedling, like a trident.

POCD is partial outer canopy defoliation.

 

[JudyB]

I want to do a thread graft on a Japanese maple. When are the next generation of buds mature enough so that when leaves are cut, the next generation of buds will sprout?

Thanks

PS I know this is not an ideal time of year.

Well I’ll be finding out as I didn’t catch mine in time and had to cut leaves off the new shoot growth and did the thread graft. So far it’s still alive but I’ll be watching…