What We Learned About Bonsai Since John Naka

[Vance Wood]

I dont really understand the negative vibe towards people who studied in japan..
Perhaps they could learn the same in us but if you want to be a pro thereis a timelimit and no doubt you can work on a lot more trees in japan learning much faster.
Its probably getting less and less necesarry as opurtunitys in us itself seems to be on the rise, also thanx to the people who studied in japan,

I don't think there is such a negative vibe toward people who have studied in Japan as there is a negative vibe toward those who have not. The impression that is expressed is that you, (in the generic sense) can't possibly have anything to say or show because you don't have the proper credentials. Therefore your efforts are in vain and useless. The only complaint I have is the arrogance and condesension that seems to come with that kind of teaching.

 

[Smoke]

http://www.phoenixbonsai.com/JYN.html#Local

 

[carp]

30 years ago we didn't have viagra. what have we learned since then?

 

[quietobserver]

30 years ago we didn't have viagra. what have we learned since then?

That 4 hours can be an eternity?.....

 

[Dav4]

30 years ago we didn't have viagra. what have we learned since then?

You have erectile dysfunction?
...or perhaps performance anxiety??

 

[A Random User]

I don't think there is such a negative vibe toward people who have studied in Japan as there is a negative vibe toward those who have not. The impression that is expressed is that you, (in the generic sense) can't possibly have anything to say or show because you don't have the proper credentials. Therefore your efforts are in vain and useless. The only complaint I have is the arrogance and condesension that seems to come with that kind of teaching.

Let me tell you an interesting story...
I worked for years in the Film Industry designing million dollar sets in both England and in Hollywood, and it never ceased to amaze me how many folks with true talent were often overridden or overlooked by folks with a pedigree that had none.

I personally finally left the biz after an incident where I had work designing a set with a director for months, then spent another month constructing and getting it ready. The director loved it! Until his accountant showed up seeing it was tax season, and the next thing I new 2 hours before shooting we were having to redo everything...

The moral of the story... often the head hauncho does not know as much as everyone claims they do... and secondly anyone with cash can by a plane ticket to Japan.

For me... it's a lot like supporting local businesses. The coffers stay local, and the community is built up and prospers a long the way.

 

[garywood]

[QUOTE="Vance Wood, post: 311359, member: 6" The only complaint I have is the arrogance and condesension that seems to come with that kind of teaching.[/QUOTE]
Vance, I personally haven't run across condescension and arrogance in the people I know that trained in Japan. Certainly there is confidence and self assurance but I would expect that. Could you give some specificity to the statement? It seems you are categorically lumping them all into the same mold.

 

[carp]

You have erectile dysfunction?
...or perhaps performance anxiety??

Tbh, Viagra is fun stuff.

 

[Djtommy]

I don't think there is such a negative vibe toward people who have studied in Japan as there is a negative vibe toward those who have not. The impression that is expressed is that you, (in the generic sense) can't possibly have anything to say or show because you don't have the proper credentials. Therefore your efforts are in vain and useless. The only complaint I have is the arrogance and condesension that seems to come with that kind of teaching.

Perhaps you are correct, but that was just my personall impression.
I do however see a lot of respect towards you and some other long time members here. Offcourse im not really in the us bonsaiscene, so my impression is just from this forum, not really using facebook either..

 

[Smoke]

Vance, I personally haven't run across condescension and arrogance in the people I know that trained in Japan. Certainly there is confidence and self assurance but I would expect that. Could you give some specificity to the statement? It seems you are categorically lumping them all into the same mold.

Certainly not in the teachers, but I see alot in the students....and no I am not going to name people. I think with not too much trouble and a search key one could find numerous condescending discussions at certain study groups.

I wouldn't walk across the street to a free workshop with Marco Invernizzi.

 

[jriddell88]

You guys are freaking ridiculous really. When your shitting in your diapers again we will still be here doing bonsai . And you will be forgotten......to hung up on some bullshit..I'm pretty disappointed in some of the stuff I read on here by people who are supposed to be prominent in the bonsai community....really disappointed. ..won't let it bring me down though...good luck haha

 

[M. Frary]

You guys are freaking ridiculous really. When your shitting in your diapers again we will still be here doing bonsai . And you will be forgotten......to hung up on some bullshit..I'm pretty disappointed in some of the stuff I read on here by people who are supposed to be prominent in the bonsai community....really disappointed. ..won't let it bring me down though...good luck haha

I ain't wearing no diaper. I'm just going to let it go in my pants when the need arises.
Then sell it as superthrive.
Haha! Now who's laughing?

 

[A Random User]

You guys are freaking ridiculous really. When your shitting in your diapers again we will still be here doing bonsai . And you will be forgotten......to hung up on some bullshit..I'm pretty disappointed in some of the stuff I read on here by people who are supposed to be prominent in the bonsai community....really disappointed. ..won't let it bring me down though...good luck haha

I think it is called frustration...
Everyone enjoys Bonsai, and everyone would like to see the Art raised to a higher level... and a lot of folks are pushing this and working hard to develop their art as well as the scene around them. Often I don't think a lot of these folks get the credit perhaps they deserve.

If one asks folks who are the really talent folks or the folks most would call perhaps masters of the Art... the same handful of folks come up on the list. Why? There are so many talented people doing bonsai here in the states with just as much to offer as those on the list of masters, yet no one ever speaks of them or calls them out for the awesome work that they do. Most here on this forum would not even begin to know their name.

This is sad...

We then see the same faces headlining all of the shows, doing all of the demos, being quoted for their opinions, or their ideals... yet, here again their are others who have made their own path, established their own fundamentals regarding bonsai and are no where to be found.

And Vance is a hundred percent correct... if you haven't gone and studied in Japan, you don't count. Which again is sad... why are we only hearing the voice of a few? And a voice that to be frank, isn't even theirs? They are just relaying info they picked up from Japan.

My own personal belief is we gotta figure out a way to break out of this bubble. With all the talk of making bonsai in America great, how will this ever be accomplished if we are just second rate copiers of someone else's art and ideas.

We have to start looking inwards instead of out, if we are ever to make this happen.

There are folks who have struck out on their own... established their own ideas and views and perfected their art. They have never been to Japan, they perhaps didn't have a great teacher to study under, they just did it the old fashion way through perseverance...

This is the path forward for bonsai in America... rather than fighting for table scraps tossed down from the few, we should start combining forces and listening to each other, and recognizing our own potential, rather than building up more walls of competition between ourselves. It's silly.

Our shows and our demonstrators should have headliners who offer a vision of diversity... these folks don't have to be the most qualified, but it would be nice to see some different blood now and again, with different approaches. This is how we learn to branch out, how our art begins to expand. How we learn to try new things and how we learn to establish who we are as Americans doing bonsai.

When we only examine the few, we miss out on the bigger picture. There is enough info written about Naka, Ryan Neil, Boon, Suthin, Bjorn, Kathy, Micheal, Peter, Colin, etc... they have had their voices heard, perhaps we need some new voices?
Just my blue light special of an opinion...

 

[Vance Wood]

You guys are freaking ridiculous really. When your shitting in your diapers again we will still be here doing bonsai .

Maybe but you don't know. You might run into some of the same crap I have encountered over the years and pack it in and get out. Several of these legends in their own minds are no longer doing bonsai at all.

And you will be forgotten...The only accurate thing you have said. Here's the rub----so will you. Why do you think I made the forty years remark...to hung up on some bullshit..I'm pretty disappointed in some of the stuff I read on here by people who are supposed to be prominent in the bonsai community....really disappointed. ..won't let it bring me down though...good luck haha

 

[Vance Wood]

I believe that Stacey has hit a very valad point. On one hand we complain about there being no identifiable American bonsai but we still cling like a barnacle to the underside of an old tuna boat to the standards from Japan. We complain about them but we embrace them as well. It's almost like an addiction, like when I used to smoke. I complained that everything I did and everywhere I went was dominated by my smoking and my access to it, and I wished I could quite but the weight was too great. Till four years ago, when I finally broke free.

 

[Andrew Legg]

Tbh, Viagra is fun stuff.

Give it to your trees.........you'll get formal uprights.

 

[carp]

Give it to your trees.........you'll get formal uprights.

The trees I really like get beer. Ever turned a broad down when you're drunk?

 

[Andrew Legg]

Guys, I'm obviously not American, but let me offer an opinion here. From what I can see Americans (and here I'm probably generalizing a bit) seem a bit stuck up on how great America is. I don't mean that negatively, but it can lead to a myopic view on life. What is the solution here? Well it is quite clear to me that we must learn where we can and we must acknowledge where we learn. It's obvious that there is a lot to be learnt in the world of bonsai from The East, but there is by now a lot of good knowledge globally. There are good artists in Europe, the Americas and heck there are even a few good ones here in Africa. With Japan being the home of bonsai, there will be a certain premium amount of value placed on learning there. Don't let it bother you. One thing that the Japanese can not do though is tell you about your local material and growing conditions. When ever we have a big conference here we get international headliners to promote new ideas and fresh thinking, and we get local headliners to educate us on the local stuff. It works a treat. At the African Bonsai Convention held recently here near Cape Town we had Tony Tickle, Francois Jecker and Ryan Neil. One of the most interesting sessions was a discussion forum where they shared a stage with Viky Petermann and Carl Morrow, two local artists, and the interesting thing was just how similar opinions on the debated issues were. Interestingly too was the fact that when Ryan or Francois or Tony says something people listen and take it on board, but when locals shout it from the rafters few listen. It's sad really.

In some way us South Africans can be very myopic too. There is almost an unwillingness to actually learn. We listen and hear and applaud and then go home and do what we' em done all along. Very annoying.

 

[A Random User]

I will give an example... @andrew
Seeing that you are very interested in passing a long stories, and showing what is happening in bonsai.

Perhaps, you might get together with @carp, seeing that he is currently helping to restore and tend to some of the greatest bonsai here in Florida by one of the all time bonsai master's Jim Smith. Who sadly is probably not going to be with us much longer. It might be interesting to hear some of what Carp's experience has been like and what he has begun to learn along the way... much more interesting then hearing about Viagra.

 

[0soyoung]

It might be interesting to hear some of what Carp's experience has been like and what he has begun to learn along the way... much more interesting then hearing about Viagra.

Why, yes!
Carp does seem to be a good 'upstanding' young man.