Went on my first yamadori-trip. Found what (Scots Pine) I think could be excellent trees, but are they even possible to collect?

[Syltis]

Hi!

I am fairly new to bonsai. Today I went on my first trip to look for yamadori in the southern parts of Norway, an area filled with archipelagos. I located some great-looking specimens of Scots Pine (Pinus sylvestris) and took some photos. The trees are all below an altitude of 30m.

Sadly though, they are all located on the mountainside, growing in cracks, so I can image a lot of they're roots have pushed themselves into the depths, as the trees did not move an inch. I can't imagine any way to collect them without seriously hurting the roots.
Do any of you have any experience with this? It breaks my noob heart that they seem uncollectible.

Scots Pine 1
This was the first one I found. Its about 75cm in length.



I liked the look of the trunk, and the smaller size of the tree.


Scots Pine 2
This one I think is impressive. Even though it has grown in a crack in the mountainside, it has still built such a thicc trunk.
It is kinda hard to see parts of it with the backdrop, but I think the lighter colored needledmakes it easier. It was a bit hard to photograph because of it'sposition on the mountain.


Next is the back of it.


Scots Pine 3
This one is my favourite. I love the way it cascades and the taper it has. If I were to collect one of them, it would be this one.


Next it the back if it. I love it.


Thank you for checking out my post! Again, if you thave any input on or experiences with collecting trees which are located like this, please let me know.

 

[bonsaiDerek]

great trees, number 3 looks like it might be in soil and collectable, not 1 or 2 though

 

[Syltis]

great trees, number 3 looks like it might be in soil and collectable, not 1 or 2 though

Thank you!
Sadly it seemed to be just as stuck in the mountain as the others. I'm going back there with some tools though, to make sure. I'll update the thread if I'm able to do anything with it.

 

[misfit11]

That third one is fantastic! Impossible to say that it’s collectible though. I’ve never collected Yamadori conifers before. I do know, however, that it’s not easy. Collectors with years of experience lose trees. Some of these are hundreds of years old and once they’re gone, they’re gone for good. This tree is possibly quite old if it’s been eaking out an existence in a small crack it’s whole life. It would be a shame if someone came along and dug it up to only have it die. I would find someone with many years of successful collection of Scot’s Pine go out with you to assess the situation and help you collect it IF they think it’s likely to survive. They can also help you with potting up the tree and tips for improving its chances.

 

[leatherback]

Non of these is collectable. Search for trees that are not in cracks in rocks.

 

[Syltis]

Non of these is collectable. Search for trees that are not in cracks in rocks.

Sadly I believe you are right. I would not want to risk the trees dying, so I will keep searching. Thank you for the feedback, and you as well misfit11.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

A piece of advice that I wish I got long ago:
Pines in sand and sandy soils tend to send out large taproots that go pretty deep, then at a certain depth, they spread. Those are uncollectable.
The ones growing in woodland areas, in compost soils and 'pockets' of soil in rocky areas usually have a lot of roots at the surface and can be easily lifted from the earth.

Give them a small pull and you can probably feel which one of the two it is. A deep taprot means that they rigidly stay in their place. Shallow roots allow for a more rubbery/springy feeling when you pull.

 

[misfit11]

A piece of advice that I wish I got long ago:
Pines in sand and sandy soils tend to send out large taproots that go pretty deep, then at a certain depth, they spread. Those are uncollectable.
The ones growing in woodland areas, in compost soils and 'pockets' of soil in rocky areas usually have a lot of roots at the surface and can be easily lifted from the earth.

This is true. People in our area that collect Sierra Junipers collect those trees growing in pockets. HOWEVER, these are folks who've been doing it for years and know what they're doing. No offense to the OP but he has never done this before. I stand by my first suggestion that he finds someone with experience digging these trees and do it with them or not at all.

 

[Igor. T. Ljubek]

You can do it!

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

This is true. People in our area that collect Sierra Junipers collect those trees growing in pockets. HOWEVER, these are folks who've been doing it for years and know what they're doing. No offense to the OP but he has never done this before. I stand by my first suggestion that he finds someone with experience digging these trees and do it with them or not at all.

I'm not saying to ignore that advice, because it's good advice, but I disagree with you on the 'not at all' part. I learned by trial and error with just five minor casualties. Nowadays my survival rate is 100%. Watching experts is no guarantee for doing it right yourself, I'm the living example: my wiring is still crappy and I've watched more than a hundred hours of people wiring trees. ;-)
Yamadori experts are also pretty rare in Northern Europe. Or they're very expensive.

The message I'd stand by is: Collect the crappy ones first to get some experience and leave the best out there in the wild. Once those crappy ones survive in a pot, you can go in for the better ones too.
I think the experts in the Sierra also had to learn by trial and error at some point in the past.

 

[misfit11]

The message I'd stand by is: Collect the crappy ones first to get some experience and leave the best out there in the wild. Once those crappy ones survive in a pot, you can go in for the better ones too.

I could agree with this. That tree isn't a "crappy one" though.

 

[Syltis]

This is some solid advice, thanks a lot guys. I am going back to the same area to look for trees that are better placed, but I will leave these trees alone for now. I'll probably go look at them again, but no touchy.

 

[Shibui]

Definitely look for trees that are easier to get. i think the first one is the only one that looks possible. It has a small pocket of soil and moss around the trunk. That may have a few roots, possibly enough to keep it alive when the deeper roots in the cracks in the rock are cut to free it. The other 2 look like they are growing straight from cracks in the rock and those rocks are not small enough to move. That's part of the mountain there. even if you could get either one out I would expect the roots to be very 2d from growing in a thin crack. The trunk will be wider than the roots - not good for nebari and extreme reverse taper.

Apart from the practical side you need to consider the legal and ethical side of this.
I note that the first tree is growing beside a walkway of some sort. National park? Private resort? Some sort of public area I guess. Whose tree is it? Do you have the right to steal it for yourself?
In most countries we need permission of the land owner/ manager before taking trees and other produce. I assume Norway has some laws about stealing trees? What are the penalties for taking trees like this?
On the ethical side, other people enjoy walking here and looking at the trees. Is it ethical to take whatever you want? Some of us really enjoy seeing trees like this in situ - where they grew. I like to look around and marvel at the forces that have produced these trees. When someone has stolen them the rest of us miss out on all that.
When successive waves of would be bonsai collectors have been through the area and stolen all the potential trees what is left to enjoy?

Collecting trees for bonsai can produce special bonsai but IMHO we need to carefully consider where and when and what to collect.

 

[Syltis]

Definitely look for trees that are easier to get. i think the first one is the only one that looks possible. It has a small pocket of soil and moss around the trunk. That may have a few roots, possibly enough to keep it alive when the deeper roots in the cracks in the rock are cut to free it. The other 2 look like they are growing straight from cracks in the rock and those rocks are not small enough to move. That's part of the mountain there. even if you could get either one out I would expect the roots to be very 2d from growing in a thin crack. The trunk will be wider than the roots - not good for nebari and extreme reverse taper.

Apart from the practical side you need to consider the legal and ethical side of this.
I note that the first tree is growing beside a walkway of some sort. National park? Private resort? Some sort of public area I guess. Whose tree is it? Do you have the right to steal it for yourself?
In most countries we need permission of the land owner/ manager before taking trees and other produce. I assume Norway has some laws about stealing trees? What are the penalties for taking trees like this?
On the ethical side, other people enjoy walking here and looking at the trees. Is it ethical to take whatever you want? Some of us really enjoy seeing trees like this in situ - where they grew. I like to look around and marvel at the forces that have produced these trees. When someone has stolen them the rest of us miss out on all that.
When successive waves of would be bonsai collectors have been through the area and stolen all the potential trees what is left to enjoy?

Collecting trees for bonsai can produce special bonsai but IMHO we need to carefully consider where and when and what to collect.

Hi!

Thank you for the advice and input. The first one was as stuck as the others, so I will not attempt to collect it. About the legal and ethical side of this, I very much understand your concern and as a newbie I greatly appreciate you taking the time to write this. The first one was by a walkway near a bathing beach, and I would never have touched that one without the consent of the owner of the land and if I did not feel that it hurts the overall landscape. When considering this, I image how I would feel, as someone interested in bonsai, if I owned property and someone took such a beautiful tree of it. I also greatly enjoy looking at such trees in nature, so I would consider this as well.

The other ones were actually on top of a small cliff which was super hard to reach, and they are not visible from anywhere else in the area. I had to go way off anything resembling a trail and do some climbing to get there. I care a lot about what you mentioned, but due to the location and visibility of the last two I would not have hesitated to collect them at least one of them. Though as I mentioned I will not attempt to, due to the possibility of the trees dying. Still you make excellent points, thank you.

 

[sorce]

some solid advice,

Rock Solid!

Be careful!

Sorce

 

[BrianBay9]

Walk through the area and try to rock the trunks of trees you're interested in. I they don't move, move on to another. Look for a tree with a root ball that moves along with the trunk as you rock it. That tree, if you find it, can be usually be collected with sufficient feeder roots by simply cutting a couple of support roots. Collecting in an area like that is more about finding the right tree than the skill in collecting. That collectible tree might be 1 in a 1000.

 

[rockm]

Definitely look for trees that are easier to get. i think the first one is the only one that looks possible. It has a small pocket of soil and moss around the trunk. That may have a few roots, possibly enough to keep it alive when the deeper roots in the cracks in the rock are cut to free it. The other 2 look like they are growing straight from cracks in the rock and those rocks are not small enough to move. That's part of the mountain there. even if you could get either one out I would expect the roots to be very 2d from growing in a thin crack. The trunk will be wider than the roots - not good for nebari and extreme reverse taper.

Apart from the practical side you need to consider the legal and ethical side of this.
I note that the first tree is growing beside a walkway of some sort. National park? Private resort? Some sort of public area I guess. Whose tree is it? Do you have the right to steal it for yourself?
In most countries we need permission of the land owner/ manager before taking trees and other produce. I assume Norway has some laws about stealing trees? What are the penalties for taking trees like this?
On the ethical side, other people enjoy walking here and looking at the trees. Is it ethical to take whatever you want? Some of us really enjoy seeing trees like this in situ - where they grew. I like to look around and marvel at the forces that have produced these trees. When someone has stolen them the rest of us miss out on all that.
When successive waves of would be bonsai collectors have been through the area and stolen all the potential trees what is left to enjoy?

Collecting trees for bonsai can produce special bonsai but IMHO we need to carefully consider where and when and what to collect.

Collection STARTS with ethics. Collecting trees is not a "free" source of material. Wild collecting is a resource and one that should be respected.

If you go after trees that are in public or popular areas, you're asking for trouble. A tree next to a walkway will inevitably draw objections from passersby, etc. Best to avoid trees in areas like that.
ABOVE ALL, GET PERMISSION FIRST.

Prepare soil and growing container parts BEFORE you dig something up to avoid having it sit with roots exposed for hours.

Understand the care the newly dug tree will require for the NEXT TWO OR THREE YEARS. Understand that there will be no bonsai work on that tree for two to three years as the tree recovers.

Don't think about "styling" anything you dig up for three years.

Think about the tree's needs, not your plans for it.

 

[Syltis]

Collection STARTS with ethics. Collecting trees is not a "free" source of material. Wild collecting is a resource and one that should be respected.

If you go after trees that are in public or popular areas, you're asking for trouble. A tree next to a walkway will inevitably draw objections from passersby, etc. Best to avoid trees in areas like that.
ABOVE ALL, GET PERMISSION FIRST.

Prepare soil and growing container parts BEFORE you dig something up to avoid having it sit with roots exposed for hours.

Understand the care the newly dug tree will require for the NEXT TWO OR THREE YEARS. Understand that there will be no bonsai work on that tree for two to three years as the tree recovers.

Don't think about "styling" anything you dig up for three years.

Think about the tree's needs, not your plans for it.

Hi and thank you a lot for the tips and insight, I apprectiate it. Again I would never remove a tree like that without the proper permissions. I am also doing a whole lot of reading of material like whats written by Walter Pall, and I will continue doing that before I potentially attempt any collecting.

 

[PhilipBonsai]

I want to start by saying I have successfully collected hundreds of tree's so with that proviso in mind I am very much entitled to an opinion on this subject. Firstly, for the people who are saying you need some kind of clearance from NASA to collect tree's, you are talking complete and utter nonsense. With some very BASIC horticultural knowledge a person with a reasonable head on their shoulders can go out, scout out a collectable tree and collect it successfully without having to first spend five lifetimes working alongside Miyagi from the Karate Kid. The majority of the finest bonsai in the world were collected yamadori so for some self proclaimed elites here to state that you cannot collect a tree in case they ever want to go look at it in the wild, in freaking Norway where there are literally millions if not hundreds of millions of incredible tree's, well this is just absolutely insane and downright selfish. Instead of sharing the very basic knowledge required for this fella to go and enjoy the hobby that so many here on this forum love, you jealously acted as if he needed to hire a team of specialists to do what I could have told him to do in about four paragraphs and a few videos. And if you are so concerned for the welfare of the worlds tree's then go grind your axe with the worlds forestry organizations who between them destroy millions of incredible tree's each and every year. The few tree's that a bonsai enthusiast might kill at the beginning of their career (who hasn't eh?) is but a fraction killed by these forestry orgs. Also, I hear they are cutting down tree's at an incredible rate in the Amazon, you might want to go chain yourself to some tree's over there and stop putting off young fellas who want to get into this hobby. If anyone reading this wants to know how to collect tree's for bonsai please send me a message. I've seen far too many young people destroy their lives with drink and drugs to even think about refusing anyone who wants to learn how to get into such a wonderful and wholesome hobby, its not nearly as complicated as some people here are making it out to be.

 

[_#1_]

Why don't you start by telling all of us how you would collect the trees in the first post?

I have only collect a couple trees, most survived. But none are conifers.