Using Small flint chippings in the bottom of my Bonsai pots.

[Mitty]

I have been using Kyodama for the bottom of my Bonsai pots. Works well, but a bit of a waste of good addition to mix in my "soil". I thought of using 10mm flint chipping instead, only about 1/3 the price and seems ideal to me. Has anyone tried this basic substrate ? I can`t see any problems, but then, I would appreciate any comments. I keep about 100 Shohin Bonsai ; Unlike Peter Chan who is a good grower of very large trees.

 

[leatherback]

What would flint chipping do for your plants? Sound like all it would be is a filler. But then again, I do not "layer" substrate. In the limited space available I want my trees to be able to use the whole pot.

What does Peter Chan have to do with your trees? Did you get them from him?

 

[Shibui]

10mm seems large for shohin pots but if you are doing well with something that size now then changing to another inert particle should be OK.
I don't use different layers in my pots either. Just 100% bonsai potting soil and my shohin do really well.
i think layering soil particles is a hangover from the past when potting soils were more organic or soil based. Not needed with modern bonsai potting soils IMHO.

 

[Mitty]

Hello, thanks for your suggestions. I don`t use layering as such, but I do find using a separate layer of Kyodama on the bottom of the pot to stop softer Akadama from moving to the bottom of the pot. My mesh is fixed under the drain holes so I have enough room in my pots. I have about 200 pots in all, so finding a pot is no trouble ; so if I need more room , I find another pot. I have read from a specialist that sharp edges assist the roots splitting into two , so that was why I am considering flints. I have found that Kyodama is unused in my recent potting and I wanted to incorporate it into the main soil- mix. I mentioned Peter Chan as he has some unusual ideas, which I put down partly for his work in very large Bonsai. I only keep Shohin and it is a touch more difficult to incorporate many different " substances for my soils " without crushing the stone/gravels etc. I have bought some trees from Mr Chan in the early days, but he does not offer small bonsai trees in any number. I have found, that with the number of soil-mixes I have tried, that the drain holes do get blocked at times, usually by Akadama going soft after a year or so, even with the best I can afford. Many of the pots I have were given to me, I often buy used pots. So basically , I experiment with soils. and base layers.

 

[leatherback]

I have read from a specialist that sharp edges assist the roots splitting into two

This is a fantasy story. Roots do not work that way

 

[sorce]

I don't know how much water silica draws in that rock form, but I'd be concerned it may draw the water out of your soil.

I wouldn't waste time trying to use a jackadama that "needs assistance".

Why not Sanicat, isn't that the DE you can get?

Sounds like you are sizing pots to hold rocks instead of trees, this sounds problematic, not only for aesthetics, but also horticulturally.

Anything tends to grow it's best roots at the bottom of a pot, especially when "Rock chipped".
We usually end up cutting most of those good roots off at Repot. This can't really go on forever, eventually, you need to grow a nice matte of roots at the appropriate depth. So "finding a bigger pot" seems wrong. Having room to put rocks seems wrong. It all sounds wrong and the sound is your fleeting enjoyment screaming.

I could be wrong.

Sorce

 

[Shibui]

This is a fantasy story. Roots do not work that way

Agree!

 

[Mitty]

I am at a loss to understand why the use of flint chippings is not to be recommended. I was looking at the "Bonsai lessons " online and I can`t understand why they are encouraging the use of sharp edges to split feeder roots if this is an old fashioned idea, and has no truth in it
I would have expected these "old ideas" to have been removed or the articles re-written.
But , I am self-taught due to having MS for many years.
I understand all you say about the impossibility of such ideas, but the 2016 lessons seem not that ancient ; does anyone have an opinion on such "ridiculous " ideas included in many Bonsai growing sites.?

 

[Tieball]

Many Growers have their own special mojo method of growing. Their experiments become their facts. The method is justified by what the person believes....it does not have to be factually based on what really happens. It's simply what they've decided to do.

I don’t layer substrates. That’s my mojo method of growing. I use the same mix throughout the box, container or pot. And all my trees grow healthy. I do create good drainage....and that is done through proper holes, cracks, slots or whatever in the container bottom. Adding a coarse layer is not needed.

Where is Leamington Spa located?

 

[Bnana]

Flint send seems pretty useless to me. It's not porous, so can't hold water or nutrients. It's even worse than standard pebbles as it's sharp, so it can damage roots, especially when reporting (not a good thing).
I don't see any useful attribute in flint.

But why are you using akadama that goes soft? Sounds horrible.

 

[leatherback]

I am at a loss to understand why the use of flint chippings is not to be recommended. I was looking at the "Bonsai lessons " online and I can`t understand why they are encouraging the use of sharp edges to split feeder roots if this is an old fashioned idea, and has no truth in it
I would have expected these "old ideas" to have been removed or the articles re-written.
But , I am self-taught due to having MS for many years.
I understand all you say about the impossibility of such ideas, but the 2016 lessons seem not that ancient ; does anyone have an opinion on such "ridiculous " ideas included in many Bonsai growing sites.?

Time to drop the video channel if they and claim that you need a drainage layer AND say sharp edges cause roots to split.

Why it is around? Because many people live in their own version of the world, follow whatever an old person sais and never test anything themselves nor check scientific studies on the matter.

A lot of Bonsai Gospel is just imagination by people, and not evolving of knowledge.

One of the fakebook groups I am in has an "expert" who happens to be in my local club. This expert has blocked me just in time, as the facebook group owner I was not allowed to contradict this "expert" anymore, as he was much more experienced. Been doing bonsai for 40 years, and taught hundreds of people bonsai. So seen as some sort of god in those circles. Unfortunately, his trees suffar massive die-back. He has frequent rotting roots (I have helped repot some trees that came from his garden) and he propagates myths such as the need of letting tap-water stand for 24 hours to let the calcium dissepate. In any case. He is teaching what he learned 40 years ago. Unfortunately, a lot of knowledge has evolved. He is however not open to hearing other thoughts, instead, blocking people that correct outdated info. Direct result: ALl people with another voice in that group have been blocked and cannot see the nonsense posted and repeat it. Oh, and see their trees die in spring.

 

[Mitty]

I seem to have caused fellow Bonsai growers to react to their own beliefs. I was following ideas mentioned in "Bonsai lessons" on the Web. Dated November 2016. I am somewhat surprised that their ideas are somewhat ridiculous in what they say, There is a well-noted company selling "the best Bonsai". They insist that some Chinese Parviflora is also Zelkova. I don`t agree with this distinction as it seems to me as a reason to increase their online prices. Anyway, I still believe that one needs a degree of unreactive substances in my "soils". I shall leave the subject now, it seems to cause many to defend their own ideas on soils used in Bonsai. Not many agree with the Japanese trends, to use a large amount of Akadama & Kyodama.
By the way, I live in Leamington Spa , which is very near Warwick and it`s castle southwest of Birmingham, UK., not far from Rugby.

 

[Bnana]

If you want something inert, that just fills and doesn't hold water or nutrients, I'd suggest gravel.

Akadama is great stuff if you have the right quality and suitable climate. If it falls apart and becomes clay I would avoid it.

 

[Mitty]

Thanks for the tips. I did try gravel, but it meant rinsing any sand off. So I went for flints, then used my Kyodama to mix in with my soil mix, with hard Akadama, Pumice, Lava and sometimes composited bark. (if the tree has little to no soil attached to roots ). I don`t remove all the soil with water if it is doing well. I can get clean gravel very cheaply. I only keep Shohin. I find they have more to style.

 

[Adair M]

Shohin pots are very small. You need every bit of available space in them to have soil for roots.

“Drainage layers” are needed for larger, deeper pots to promote proper drainage.

As to the quality of your information about bonsai... There is a lot of information passed around that is simply “passed down” and no one thinks anything about it. But, it might not be entirely accurate. For example, wiring. Virtually every book says that when wiring out a branch, the wire should be at a 45 degree angle when viewed from the side. Right? Well, that’s wrong! For maximum strength, holding power, and aesthetics, the wire should be more at 60 degrees! Do they say that? No! They always say 45. Why? Who knows???

Likewise, your “sharp particle” theory is just plain wrong! You don’t want sharp particles in you soil mix. Sharp particles pack. They stack up and become solid. Instead, think of a glass filled with round marbles. There’s lots of air space. Right? Think of a stack of bricks. No (or little) air space.

Akadama, by the way, starts off round. And yes, it does break down over time. But it still breaks down in rounded particles. It works by being open when it’s fresh. Lots of air space that lets roots grow quickly in between the particles. That’s good when you’ve repotted, you get new roots quickly. But as it breaks diwn, the root growth slows down, the spaces between particles become smaller, thus promoting smaller feeder roots, rather than coarse “tap” roots.

Bonsai don’t need “tap” roots because we use wire to tie the tree into the pot. In nature, the tap roots secure the tree to the ground. In bonsai, the wire serves that purpose. So, all that’s needed are the feeder roots. Using akadama helps build a network of feeder roots.

 

[Tieball]

I seem to have caused fellow Bonsai growers to react to their own beliefs.
By the way, I live in Leamington Spa , which is very near Warwick and it`s castle southwest of Birmingham, UK., not far from Rugby.

I find it a good balance in learning to hear different views. I wouldn’t simply want an echo of my own view. I enjoy an odd collection of information so I can adjust my thinking to suit my situation. I enjoy opposing views...challenges to thinking.
I kinda figured you were UK but was not sure. The location sounded UK based. Thanks for clarifying the location.

 

[jevanlewis]

I am at a loss to understand why the use of flint chippings is not to be recommended. I was looking at the "Bonsai lessons " online and I can`t understand why they are encouraging the use of sharp edges to split feeder roots if this is an old fashioned idea, and has no truth in it
I would have expected these "old ideas" to have been removed or the articles re-written.
But , I am self-taught due to having MS for many years.
I understand all you say about the impossibility of such ideas, but the 2016 lessons seem not that ancient ; does anyone have an opinion on such "ridiculous " ideas included in many Bonsai growing sites.?

The book "Bonsai Heresy" provides a great discussion around the topic of why some methods propagate in bonsai circles and how decide whether or not to follow methods that don't have scientific papers to back them. There will be some ideas we can prove with science, but many will be difficult to prove one way or another because designing a proper experiment in bonsai is very difficult. Ultimately, while many methods don't have white papers supporting their claims, they become widely adopted because of the collective experience of hundreds, if not thousands, of bonsai practitioners (e.g., trends toward increasing usage of 100% inorganic soil mixes for certain use cases). And finally, there will be some (potentially incorrect) ideas that spread because a few influential bonsai experts decided to adopt them for some reason or another (and sometimes for no good reason at all). Just because someone has great trees, doesn't mean every single one of their methods are correct. They might have great trees despite, not because of, one or two incorrect methods, and but as long as they apply incorrect methods to something not too impactful, things turn out fine because they apply correct methods on the things that matter the most.

 

[Mitty]

Thanks, all of you. I do take your point regarding various ideas ; right or wrong. I have had great success since I used Kyodama in the bottom of my pots. Maybe , I should leave the Kyodama where it is. Long roots seem to like it. On the point of " room " in pots for Shohin : I have tried fixing the mesh below the pot using non-toxic ,waterproof glue and it has been a success . I have also purchased 2mm diamond drills to give all my pots wire holes : it is a nuisance having to put wires through the drainage mesh and I have done experiments with wires of 1.5mm to 2.5mm : they take up room in the drainage hole. This frees up space in the pots. I expect many to disapprove, but it really works. It might seem tricky to drill these holes, but I start using a 6mm glass drill and halfway through, I revert to the 2mm size and it works a treat. I even use my De-Walt on hammer and still have no problems. I had to help build a house and wire it, so I have a bit of experience with drills. PS, I buy second-hand 18v eclectic drills powered by good copies of the original De-Walt batteries; It works out at about £16 a drill including battery, same goes for the chargers. I have amassed 6 x 18v De-Walts this way. So no changing drill bits as you go along, just drills.
I am sorry to include some more of my ideas, but that's what I do : experiment . And I don`t want to waste your time.

 

[Adair M]

Thanks, all of you. I do take your point regarding various ideas ; right or wrong. I have had great success since I used Kyodama in the bottom of my pots. Maybe , I should leave the Kyodama where it is. Long roots seem to like it. On the point of " room " in pots for Shohin : I have tried fixing the mesh below the pot using non-toxic ,waterproof glue and it has been a success . I have also purchased 2mm diamond drills to give all my pots wire holes : it is a nuisance having to put wires through the drainage mesh and I have done experiments with wires of 1.5mm to 2.5mm : they take up room in the drainage hole. This frees up space in the pots. I expect many to disapprove, but it really works. It might seem tricky to drill these holes, but I start using a 6mm glass drill and halfway through, I revert to the 2mm size and it works a treat. I even use my De-Walt on hammer and still have no problems. I had to help build a house and wire it, so I have a bit of experience with drills. PS, I buy second-hand 18v eclectic drills powered by good copies of the original De-Walt batteries; It works out at about £16 a drill including battery, same goes for the chargers. I have amassed 6 x 18v De-Walts this way. So no changing drill bits as you go along, just drills.
I am sorry to include some more of my ideas, but that's what I do : experiment . And I don`t want to waste your time.

Well... you can do what you want with your pots, of course. But, the rest of us have managed to keep Shohin bonsai in traditional Shohin pots wired in the traditional way for years and years!

Why do you think you have to go to extraordinary methods?

I suggest that you do more research on the modern, but proven, methods before going off and reinventing the wheel!

That way, your time and energy can be better put to use, learning and perfecting the current “state of the art”.

I’m not suggesting there can not be better ways of doing things. But, I think that you need to learn the current “best practices” and methods before striking out on your own.

 

[Mitty]

Well now , I don`t agree with people following old paradigms. when accused of this Newton refused to accept this principle when accused by Davy. I thank god I was taught chemistry by a Fellow of the Royal Society : he taught me how to make bombs out of powdered Mercury and liquid Oxygen. He was an explosives expert in the war.
To be honest , I am so against old ideas, good though they appear to be : there is always room for improval. I am not re-inventing the wheel : I am looking at new ways and ideas. I have been interested in Bonsai since 1972 and have read over 50 books on the subject. I have tried the "approved way", but am not impressed. Fixing mesh beneath the pot has merits, especially if you are interested in Mame or small Shohin, where room for growing medium is at premium. Nobody has mentioned fixing the mesh beneath the pots , so I thought I had better do this.
I helped a Gardening Company many years ago in producing timer watering systems. It was my idea, as I had been using a similar system for many years but using 240 volts encased in resin and washing machine parts..
I have no wish to blow my own trumpet, it is a thing I detest in people ; but trying, always to improve our world. It is my Raison d`etre. I hope you can appreciate my candor in this.
I was trained as a French Chef and then got interested in Sugars and food spoilage, and then other things like, Electricity and of course Nikola Tesla`s inventions, as you do when you drive a car. He invented the generator and alternator among other things ( but he didn`t invent the wheel ) The principal is on some of our £1.00 coins :" standing on the shoulders of giants".