Using PGR to reduce internode length and other unconventional methods???

[Cypress]

Hey all,
So I wanted to throw this idea into the figurative bonsai arena. Has anyone ever used or heard of others using PGR hormones (Plant Growth Regulators) in order to reduce internode length? Now I feel like bonsai purists are probably gasping in horror as I type this, but let me clarify one thing. I'm not arguing one way or the other and I thought it would be interesting to spark a discussion about this since I havnt really seen it talked about. I'm not suggesting the use of PGR on all species just so you can be lazy about pruning, but what about those species that would make lovely bonsai if only their internodes were a bit shorter? And of course this would only really be used in the stage of your bonsai when you're concentrating on ramification.

Now let's face it, this is just about as natural as anyone using inorganic fertilizers on their bonsai, which is pretty standard. Pretty sure they didn't fix nitrogen from staggering amounts of methane and other fossil fuels via the Haber-Bosch process in ancient Japan. On top of that PGR application is ubiquitous in commercial ornamental horticulture. For some time I worked as as an assistant grower at a very large commercial greenhouse complex and PGR was sprayed constantly. Now, I was working with annual and perennial garden/landscaping plants. Not trees. But I do know it can be and is used with trees, but I'm not sure to what extent. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that some of your trees that originally came from nurseries received PGR treatment before you bought them.

For example: http://www.arborsystems.com/find-a-product/injection-systems-2/wedgle/plant-growth-regulators/

I started thinking about this because I have a Shantung Maple ( Acer truncatum )with really unique trunk and nebari character that I will be developing into bonsai. I have read alot about the one thing that makes this species a greater challenge is it's tendency for longer internodes and petioles.

Would a tree treated with PGR be like the Lance Armstrong of bonsai trees? Shunned and shamed for using "performance enhancing hormones"? Hahaha, what do you think?

 

[Smoke]

Here is the way I see it.


I was using humic acid to help spark my bonsai and improve the effects of fertilizer nearly ten years ago. I didn't ask anyones permission or spark any discussion. I did it, seen the effects and shared what I found out.

Some tried it and some didn't. Some had negative things to say and some praised its effects. To this day I continue to use it as I have seen the benifits of many years of use and how my trees respond to the severe rigors I put them thru in my rigorous climate.

So I might suggest grabbing your tree doing what ever it is you think you should do and report back here with the better tree and smaller leaves and shorter internodes. I don't think anyone would dispute the findings if it works. I am sure those many years ago still hanging fishing weights on their trees laughed at the goofs twisting wire on the branches.

Just do it man.....

 

[Cypress]

Well said!

 

[moke]

Just curious if you ever gave TGR a try?
I ask because I was pondering this myself today after the local power company was outside looking my landscape trees over. I thought they were here to butcher my trees up again, but after speaking to the gal she said it looked like our large cottonwood tree was a candidate for TGR application? What the hell is TGR? She proceeded to explain it to me and everything she said was common bonsai lingo. Shorter internodes, finer root development etc.
So after reading about it some on the web, I come to B-nut figuring surly someone has expirmented with it?
I think I may give some a try out of curiosity.

 

[Anthony]

Well you try it and come and back and show the results.
Down here we just grow and clip, because there are many variables,
with seedlings/seeds and so you find some that trunk thicken
faster, or are denser or branch, finer of leaf [ smaller ]'

There is no need for additives.

Still looking for the branch dense / smaller leaf seagrape/s.
Good Experimenting.
Anthony

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

PGR are Plant Growth Regulators.
TGR? I haven't got the slightest clue.

PGR's can help out, or ruin your tree. It all depends on dosage. What dosage? That's for us to figure out. No one in their right mind would try it on an established tree. So I'm experimenting with these things on established trees.
As far as results go, I have very little. Most plants I experiment on are pines, and those are slow to respond to everything.

 

[moke]

“Tree Growth Regulator” same thing as PGR, I think it is a name they have given it as to not freak home owners out. They have been hired by the local power companies and I’m sure if you called it a Plant Growth Regulator people would be worried. As was I when I read TGR, I freaked a bit knowing I had Bonsai in the back yard “Do they spray applicate?” Overspray “Oh shit, this may effect my trees” after reading the pamphlet and a little online I found they inject it around the base of the tree and found it interesting for possible use on established Bonsai.
I figured there had to be somebody out there trying it, @Wires_Guy_wires thanks for sharing your results thus far.

 

[0soyoung]

Years ago I tried to interest fellow BNutters in a simple experiment comparing repotting after the summer solstice (e.g. in Aug/Sep, here in the northern hemisphere). In the background, I incorporated two PGRs as additional factors in the experimental design. I spent many months studying scholarly papers to determine my best guess for the dosing levels, timing, and application method for each species. After the experience of one season with these five species (Douglas fir, lodgepole pine, cork oak, zelkova, eastern red bud) I added toying in a less structured way with others such as acer palmatum, mugo, spruce, concolor fir.

Prior to all this I maniacally air-layered stuff, primarily acer palmatum varieties, but also hornbeam, stewartia, p. thunbergii, and others. I used varying levels of IBA powders which induced some very interesting effects that motivated me to do a lot more study of tree physiology and started my interest in PGRs for bonsai.

Everybody has played with this PGR (IBA/NAA = auxins), haven't they? But, probably not in any investigative way. Hormex sells a nice little kit with a range of IBA strength powders. Alternatively, one can easily purchase pure IBA and NAA and mix what ever strengths they want. One can buy some talc and make their own powders to apply to exposed cambium or just use it in the liquid form, applying by foliar spraying, as a root drench maybe, or painting it on cuts/girdles that expose cambium (this is where biologically active auxin is transported). I learned a lot about how trees work dabbling in this way, but very little of direct practical value beyond a better understanding of how trees work.

While I thrive on just finding things out, I decided to spend more of my time learning to graft and to concentrate on artistic expression with bonsai. Besides, I cannot find any entity interested in funding me with a research grant.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I'm spending some of my free time investigating research papers. I'm composing a document with my findings about PGR's on the bonsai species I own.
Just to see what they do, at what concentrations and how the plants should theoretically respond.
The document itself is still limited to a single page, but I plan on updating it a little next week. If you guys are interested, I can upload it later here on this website.
Most studies use previously tested methods and concentrations, whenever I find a duplicate, I usually don't incorporate it a second time unless there's an interesting find.

However, I do have to mention that I've spent over 9 years in science and that I've cited close to 50.000 papers/articles/publications. In the document I'm making, I've decided I'm kind of done with referring to sources/studies. That's my job, not my hobby.
That's the first downside to the doc. The other downside is that I'm only reviewing the most commonly available hormones.
The third downside is that I'm no longer in school and that I'm not allowed to use work-accounts for private research, so I'm limited to publications with free access.

Anyone still in university and willing to help out? Usually your student account gives you free access to nearly every publication on earth. This would broaden the possibilities of gathering solid info by a few thousand percents. It's also good and valuable exercise! And I don't have to do the work myself, which is big plus.

@0soyoung I can always mail you some. I have enough of the stuff to last me a lifetime, but it doesn't last a lifetime and it would be a waste to let it decay. I just don't know how US customs would handle little bags of white powder.

 

[0soyoung]

@0soyoung I can always mail you some. I have enough of the stuff to last me a lifetime, but it doesn't last a lifetime and it would be a waste to let it decay. I just don't know how US customs would handle little bags of white powder.

I can buy almost anything within the U.S. from places like Sigma-Aldrich, I have gotten GA3, NAA, and IBA powders through the mail. Things might be different for stuff coming from outside the U.S., especially if a little white powder happens to fall out of an envelope or it is several boxes about the size of a brick that weigh one kilo. When one is willing to buy in quart or gallon quantities, lots of commonly used PGRs are available on Amazon. If it is used in agriculture, I usually can get it from a local farm supply. IOW, I may avail myself of your offer if it is an newer compound. Until then, thanks for the offer.

 

[TrunkTickler]

Anyone still in university and willing to help out? Usually your student account gives you free access to nearly every publication on earth. This would broaden the possibilities of gathering solid info by a few thousand percents. It's also good and valuable exercise! And I don't have to do the work myself, which is big plus.
/QUOTE]

I have access to most journals still

 

[TrunkTickler]

I have access to most journals still

 

[Hump]

Any updates on this? I'm really interested to find out how introducing PGR went?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I have no updates, the document is somewhere on my hard drive but I never finished it.
However, there is this page called sci-hub and it lets you search all paywalled scientific resources for free.

Sci-Hub

Sci-Hub,mg.scihub.ltd,sci-hub.tw,The project is supported by user donations. Imagine the world with free access to knowledge for everyone ‐ a world without any paywalls.

scihub.wikicn.top

Be careful though, there are scam pages that rise to the top of the google results if you search for sci hub. Most of them are just full of ads, others take your pc hostage.

 

[elroy]

Any updates on this? I'm really interested to find out how introducing PGR went?

Provincial and state extension services have recommendations especially for fruit trees, apples, cherries and more.