Trident Maple Next Steps Questions

[Maiden69]

Hi All!

No pics, but I promise I will do my best to post them up tonight.

My trident maple is in needs of a re-bag, and I intend to grow it a little more before moving it into a pot. It was around 10 feet tall and was cut down to around 3' for the move into the apartment. I left a few medium size branches as I was planning on air-layering them in order to start a few shorter sized trees.

Can I do the root work as soon as the buds start to swell, and then set the air layers after post flush hardening? Or should I just forgo the air-layers and just chop the trunk with the root work?

Pics from September 2022. The base and trunk has increased quite a bit since then.



My plan was to chop to the branch you can see peaking on the top right of the picture below as the next section of trunk. IT all depends on what I find when I remove the bag. It is safe to say this will be the first bare rooting this tree will have since I bought it DEC 2020.

 

[River's Edge]

It depends on your expected time frame and specific plan for the trunk development. Does the plan call for multiple chops, a short powerful tree with lots of taper, change of direction? Or are you considering a tall slender tree with minimal taper and change of direction?
In short what are your objectives for this tree!
Some answers may seem obvious but they are not. Air layer before chop seems obvious. Air layer before major root work not so much so. The additional branching, buds and foliage will help the root work recover faster.
Root work is needed, therefore should be done first and as the buds swell is appropriate timing. Chopping at the time of root work is appropriate but then the air layers are not possible!
Is a chop needed at this particular time to avoid too big a scar for healing, or can it wait!
I love answering a question with more questions.
If you describe the type and size of trunk you wish to develop and give the current size of the trunk. That would help inform a better response.

 

[Wood]

That's a nice nebari!

A tree handles an air layer much like it would handle a trunk chop, right? The root system suddenly loses the hormones and sugars being produced by the buds and foliage. If the tree can handle simultaneous root work and chopping, I'm not sure why it couldn't handle simultaneous root work and air layers

This past season, I set air layers on a cedar elm just as buds were extending and they did fine, but I did not repot that tree at the same time

 

[Maiden69]

It depends on your expected time frame and specific plan for the trunk development. Does the plan call for multiple chops, a short powerful tree with lots of taper, change of direction? Or are you considering a tall slender tree with minimal taper and change of direction?

In short what are your objectives for this tree!

Right now, because of the move my timeframe was messed up completely. My plan for the base of the tree is a short and stalky tree as you noted above with great taper. The branches above have one that will be layered into a twin trunk and some that can be layered after they push new growth into smaller stalky trees.

This one definitely will not be shohin size.

Root work is needed, therefore should be done first and as the buds swell is appropriate timing. Chopping at the time of root work is appropriate but then the air layers are not possible!
Is a chop needed at this particular time to avoid too big a scar for healing, or can it wait!

The tree does need to be root worked, percolation through the bag is starting to slow down. I think I can wait till next year for the chop, the question above was in case I actually needed to chop it because of the hard root reduction. I will be happier if the tree don't need to be chop. That way I can set the air-layers close to summer and possibly separate around fall.

If I go this route, I guess I will have to asses the trees health and strength next year before attempting the chop right? I may do like Ebihara does and chop a wedge next year, cover with putty or even aluminum tape, then completely chop in spring 2026.

 

[River's Edge]

the question above was in case I actually needed to chop it because of the hard root reduction.

If the repot is done just prior to bud swell ar at bud swell, no reduction of the tree is needed. Tridents are vigorous species and with younger trees aggressive root pruning is a normal process at this stage. That being said if the tree has been in the root bag for four or five years without root work you may have to judge the situation accordingly.
The answer depends on what you find and how much you decide to do at once. Healthy tridents can withstand a lot of root work.

I will be happier if the tree don't need to be chop.

This depends on the current trunk diameter in the location you wish to chop. The added factor is your confidence with scar size and what size is appropriate for your design. The style you speak of is usually accomplished with multiple sacrifice leaders being managed over the development allowing for a series of smaller scars rather than a series of larger individual chops. This method also develops a broader nebari in a shorter period of time.
As a general guideline I would consider a 3 to 4 inch diameter above the flare as a good starting point. This allows for fast taper in a shorter tree. taller trees would look better by beginning with a broader base. My largest trident is 8 1/2 inches above the flare with 12 inch nebari. Just for an example.

 

[Maiden69]

Thanks Frank will definitely take that in consideration when i open the bag. The tree has been there for 3 years.

 

[Maiden69]

Pics from this morning, 6-6.5" nebari with around 3.5" trunk.

Front


Back


From above


Position of the lowest branch I plan to chop to next year. I'm guessing after the root reduction this year the tree will not grow as fast as before.





Posible air layer for a twin trunk. This will layer off the entire canopy of the tree around 5" above my intended chop area.









Second possible layer, I think this could eventually develop into a 5 trunk clump, or if I cut all but one trunk I could start to work on a shohin tree. But that would leave a lot of scars to heal properly.

 

[River's Edge]

Thanks Frank will definitely take that in consideration when i open the bag. The tree has been there for 3 years.

If you have or can get access to Andrea Merrigioli book "Bonsai Maples", check out the alternative grow method for smaller trees with powerful bases and fast taper. Chapter 11.5 from page 305 to page 307. I think it is the best option to build your development plan on. Clear directions and excellent diagrams to support the directions.
Best of luck!
I forgot to post this just before I sent you the pictures by PM. Maybe it makes more sense now

 

[River's Edge]

Pics from this morning, 6-6.5" nebari with around 3.5" trunk.

Front
View attachment 523512

Back
View attachment 523513

From above
View attachment 523520

Position of the lowest branch I plan to chop to next year. I'm guessing after the root reduction this year the tree will not grow as fast as before.
View attachment 523521




Posible air layer for a twin trunk. This will layer off the entire canopy of the tree around 5" above my intended chop area.
View attachment 523514

View attachment 523515

View attachment 523516




Second possible layer, I think this could eventually develop into a 5 trunk clump, or if I cut all but one trunk I could start to work on a shohin tree. But that would leave a lot of scars to heal properly.
View attachment 523517

View attachment 523518

View attachment 523519

Nice beginnings, Have fun. Plan on working with the nebari when you repot and consider a wooden box. Just a rough approximate size I would suggest 18 by 18 by 3 inch depth. After the heavy root work if you can affix a tile under the would be another idea to consider. If not the first time you rework the roots, then perhaps the second. I note you have some very low shoots on the base which will be very advantageous for the big chop in the beginning.

 

[Matte91]

I will not recommend to root work and air layer the same year.
I lost a couple of trees and I talked with other people that lost some trees too.

 

[Maiden69]

If you have or can get access to Andrea Merrigioli book "Bonsai Maples", check out the alternative grow method for smaller trees with powerful bases and fast taper. Chapter 11.5 from page 305 to page 307. I think it is the best option to build your development plan on. Clear directions and excellent diagrams to support the directions.
Best of luck!
I forgot to post this just before I sent you the pictures by PM. Maybe it makes more sense now

I do need to buy that book.

Nice beginnings, Have fun. Plan on working with the nebari when you repot and consider a wooden box. Just a rough approximate size I would suggest 18 by 18 by 3 inch depth. After the heavy root work if you can affix a tile under the would be another idea to consider. If not the first time you rework the roots, then perhaps the second. I note you have some very low shoots on the base which will be very advantageous for the big chop in the beginning.

Thanks, Yes, I noticed the rear does need attention, but right now I need to see what's below so I can plan accordingly. I have some trident seeds that I planned on sowing to use as root grafts but moving delayed that a lot. Will probably hit Matt O when I get close to working on the tree. I do have around 10 seedlings growing from last year so I may use those if necessary.

I'm using a large grow bag this year, but I am cutting it around 3" high, they are 14" in diameter, I plan on placing the tree on a tile screwed into the tree from the bottom, and then into the bag. I think 1-2 more years in the bag, then into a box or a pot depending on where it is. I notice that at least in my climate I can get more growth out of the bag than in a box.

 

[River's Edge]

I do need to buy that book.

Thanks, Yes, I noticed the rear does need attention, but right now I need to see what's below so I can plan accordingly. I have some trident seeds that I planned on sowing to use as root grafts but moving delayed that a lot. Will probably hit Matt O when I get close to working on the tree. I do have around 10 seedlings growing from last year so I may use those if necessary.

I'm using a large grow bag this year, but I am cutting it around 3" high, they are 14" in diameter, I plan on placing the tree on a tile screwed into the tree from the bottom, and then into the bag. I think 1-2 more years in the bag, then into a box or a pot depending on where it is. I notice that at least in my climate I can get more growth out of the bag than in a box.

Next time you prune start some cuttings to develop for thread grafting. You can always let some escape branching go and curl it around instead if planned ahead. I like your approach to put it back in the ground with a tile or board! The ground is more stable in temperature and usually give a longer growing season. Containers fluctuate in temperature more. Always tradeoffs!
The book is worth every penny! Lots of varied techniques that expand ones tool box for diverse situations and readily transferable to other deciduous development plans. I believe one of its advantages is the diversity of material presented from a range of Bonsai Masters as opposed to a book written by one key individual about their techniques and experiences. Much broader scope.

 

[Soup Dragon]

That's a nice nebari!

A tree handles an air layer much like it would handle a trunk chop, right? The root system suddenly loses the hormones and sugars being produced by the buds and foliage. If the tree can handle simultaneous root work and chopping, I'm not sure why it couldn't handle simultaneous root work and air layers

This past season, I set air layers on a cedar elm just as buds were extending and they did fine, but I did not repot that tree at the same time

There is an important difference.

In the case of a trunk chop, a large portion of the tree disappears. So, no hormones and sugars coming down from the foliage that has gone away, but equally the roots do not have to supply water and nutrients up into the chopped part of the tree.

With an air layer, the downward flow is interrupted, but the roots still have to support everything above the layer until it is separated. This is an uneven equilibrium that takes a lot out of the tree. Doing this together with root work is asking for trouble.

 

[River's Edge]

It depends, if one does the root work in the beginning of march and the air layer in late May. Considering the species is Trident Maple and the location is Texas. We have a combination of extended season, vigorous species and the ability to stagger the procedures. Under these circumstances an experienced and well trained individual may very well be successful. The kind of experience and training, that they are comfortable judging the condition and strength of the particular tree in question. The other variable is the degree of root work that takes place. The other variable to consider with air layers is the presence of branching lower down below the air layers to provide nutrients to the lower trunk. In this case their are plenty below the considered air layers. Once again it depends. If the highest priority is the root work and it is extensive than I would wait on all other aspects of development. If the root work required was not very extensive then I could go through the checklist and consider the air layers.

In shorter growing seasons with less vigorous species it would not be the best choice. With no lower branches to feed the base it would not be the best choice. If both procedures were completed at the very same time ( as opposed to within the same season) it would not be the best choice. ( no time for roots to recover first ) If the bonsai enthusiast involved is not very experienced or well trained it would not be the best choice.
Given the stage of development of this tree and the decades ahead before approaching refinement. Whats the rush, enjoy the journey!

 

[Maiden69]

@River's Edge Frank, how late would you repot a trident? I was going to work on it this weekend but ran out of time. It had a few leaves opened in the lower portion, but now there are a bunch all over the tree.

If I am to late I may just clean up the top soil to improve percolation and start the air layer. Water still drains through the soil, but not as free-flow as I would like it to be.

 

[River's Edge]

Given your location and the trees current condition I would improve the surface soil as you suggested and start the air layer. The leaves look pretty opened up to me.
Tridents are strong and one can get away with quite a bit, but the timing favours the approach you suggested in my view! Then do not plan anything other than air layer removal for the fall and a major repot late winter/early spring next year. Do fertilize regularly this season and provide lots of water.