Trident maple in ground

[yanktonian]

Hello!

Longtime lurker, so fascinating to watch y'all do your thing. I'm a rookie tree killer and live east of Atlanta GA USA (zone 8a). I planted a trident maple many years ago not realizing how larger it would eventually become and since then my landscaping plans have changed. I'm going to remove the tree, but thought I'd ask about how to use it as bonsai instead.

My questions are:
- can I develop nabari by digging back soil from the trunk to expose it
- what time of year can I trunk chop to work on taper? I've seen early spring and late summer, but our growing season is long here.
- after the trunk chop how many years before I can dig it out and deal with the tap root.

It's about 20ft tall with a 6inch diameter trunk just below the surface and 4inch diameter 3inches above the surface.

Thanks for any advice.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Greetings and Welcome Aboard BonsaiNut!

Looks like you’ve got a big project planned.

A 6” Trident trunk would be a really big start for your entry into bonsai.

There are a plenty good Trident folks on site, so I’ll do the basics and let them follow. Looks like a chop now to let it backbud and get some branches growing before digging and working the roots early next spring would be a good timeline. That may be late for your area.

Also you’ll need to get an idea of how tall you want the tree to ultimately be. The first cut is at about 1/3 of the final height.

A couple things you can do will help others respond further.

1. Post some images of the tree and the nebari are.
2. Double click your icon on top of the page and add both your location and USDA zone information there. I know you said it in your first post….yet… This will be on you icon for each of your responses on any post/thread made, so folks don’t have to hunt the data down.

cheers and looking forward to seeing your future posts.

chers
DSD sends

 

[yanktonian]

@Deep Sea Diver thanks for the response. I figure that the tree is coming out anyway, so this is a way to keep it going if I'm successful with moving it to a little pot. I also figure that I have time and patience that I've not had in the past. Here is a pic:

 

[Shibui]

Contrary to popular opinion bigger is not always better, especially for bonsai. Big bonsai can be impressive but bigger also means bigger faults and bigger problems, not to mention the sheer size and weight you'll need to manage when moving, pruning and repotting your bonsai.

Nebari is already quite good enough for a ground grown trident. You can deal with that when it is dug. Nebari is not 'developed' by exposing. Nebari is either there or not there. Removing soil just lets us see it. When you do dig I'd recommend cutting the lateral roots very short - around 1/2 to 1 trunk diameter long. More than 90% of new roots will grow straight from the cut ends so cutting short will mean new feeder roots close to the trunk will fit into a reasonable sized pot eventually. No difference in survival whether you cut trident roots long or short but the best time to reduce roots seems to be at initial transplant before branches above are fully developed.

Vertical straight trunk could be a problem depending on what style you try to develop. The roots are now well developed so it will be difficult to do anything except a vertical initial trunk. My guess is that broom or modified broom (natural) style will be the best options for this tree.

Large chops take years to heal over. Also takes years for any new leader to grow to match the large stump diameter. Neither is a deal breaker but just be prepared to spend 5-10 years on the final development stages.

Tridents are resilient. I grow and dig a couple of hundred of these each year for the past 30 years and have no problem doing trunk chop and root pruning in one operation. Trunk chop can be done in winter (here) or later in spring after leaves are open. Before leaves open is also OK in conjunction with root pruning but otherwise I find excessive bleeding from cuts around bud burst. I'd say you could do an initial trunk chop now and get really good results.
I have some reservations about chopping older trunks like this straight down to final height. Older trunks sometimes fail to bud well and can result in part (occasionally all) of the trunk dying back, often taking some roots with it in the process. I no longer allow tridents to get to this size before first chop so not really sure if a gradual height reduction over a couple of years will help or whether you should just go for broke and deal with consequences after.

 

[sorce]

Nice.

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

 

[yanktonian]

Contrary to popular opinion bigger is not always better, especially for bonsai. Big bonsai can be impressive but bigger also means bigger faults and bigger problems, not to mention the sheer size and weight you'll need to manage when moving, pruning and repotting your bonsai.

Nebari is already quite good enough for a ground grown trident. You can deal with that when it is dug. Nebari is not 'developed' by exposing. Nebari is either there or not there. Removing soil just lets us see it. When you do dig I'd recommend cutting the lateral roots very short - around 1/2 to 1 trunk diameter long. More than 90% of new roots will grow straight from the cut ends so cutting short will mean new feeder roots close to the trunk will fit into a reasonable sized pot eventually. No difference in survival whether you cut trident roots long or short but the best time to reduce roots seems to be at initial transplant before branches above are fully developed.

Vertical straight trunk could be a problem depending on what style you try to develop. The roots are now well developed so it will be difficult to do anything except a vertical initial trunk. My guess is that broom or modified broom (natural) style will be the best options for this tree.

Large chops take years to heal over. Also takes years for any new leader to grow to match the large stump diameter. Neither is a deal breaker but just be prepared to spend 5-10 years on the final development stages.

Tridents are resilient. I grow and dig a couple of hundred of these each year for the past 30 years and have no problem doing trunk chop and root pruning in one operation. Trunk chop can be done in winter (here) or later in spring after leaves are open. Before leaves open is also OK in conjunction with root pruning but otherwise I find excessive bleeding from cuts around bud burst. I'd say you could do an initial trunk chop now and get really good results.
I have some reservations about chopping older trunks like this straight down to final height. Older trunks sometimes fail to bud well and can result in part (occasionally all) of the trunk dying back, often taking some roots with it in the process. I no longer allow tridents to get to this size before first chop so not really sure if a gradual height reduction over a couple of years will help or whether you should just go for broke and deal with consequences after.

Going for broke this coming weekend! I appreciate the input and wisdom. I plan to leave it in the ground after trunk chop and plan to wait to do any root work until next spring.

I just don't want it getting any larger than it is at this point.

 

[Tbrshou]

If your gonna just leave it in the ground then just leave the tree alone unit about February/March for our area. Ideally I would chop it gradually as to leave room for a possible leader. Wire the leader up then put it back in the ground to allow that leader to thicken and so on, while working the roots at the same time.It's about to get REALLY hot here and u r making a risky decision by digging now imo.

 

[rdb00]

Contrary to popular opinion bigger is not always better, especially for bonsai. Big bonsai can be impressive but bigger also means bigger faults and bigger problems, not to mention the sheer size and weight you'll need to manage when moving, pruning and repotting your bonsai.

Nebari is already quite good enough for a ground grown trident. You can deal with that when it is dug. Nebari is not 'developed' by exposing. Nebari is either there or not there. Removing soil just lets us see it. When you do dig I'd recommend cutting the lateral roots very short - around 1/2 to 1 trunk diameter long. More than 90% of new roots will grow straight from the cut ends so cutting short will mean new feeder roots close to the trunk will fit into a reasonable sized pot eventually. No difference in survival whether you cut trident roots long or short but the best time to reduce roots seems to be at initial transplant before branches above are fully developed.

Vertical straight trunk could be a problem depending on what style you try to develop. The roots are now well developed so it will be difficult to do anything except a vertical initial trunk. My guess is that broom or modified broom (natural) style will be the best options for this tree.

Large chops take years to heal over. Also takes years for any new leader to grow to match the large stump diameter. Neither is a deal breaker but just be prepared to spend 5-10 years on the final development stages.

Tridents are resilient. I grow and dig a couple of hundred of these each year for the past 30 years and have no problem doing trunk chop and root pruning in one operation. Trunk chop can be done in winter (here) or later in spring after leaves are open. Before leaves open is also OK in conjunction with root pruning but otherwise I find excessive bleeding from cuts around bud burst. I'd say you could do an initial trunk chop now and get really good results.
I have some reservations about chopping older trunks like this straight down to final height. Older trunks sometimes fail to bud well and can result in part (occasionally all) of the trunk dying back, often taking some roots with it in the process. I no longer allow tridents to get to this size before first chop so not really sure if a gradual height reduction over a couple of years will help or whether you should just go for broke and deal with consequences after.

Sorry for resurrecting this post but I am in the opposite situation as the original poster of this thread and I am looking for advice… I am going to put a newly acquired trident into the ground in a grow bag to grow out the trunk to my liking. I’m in zone 6-7 and planned on doing this in the fall time (roughly September-October) I need to perform some heavy root reduction though, as I plan on placing the roots over a disc to help promote nebari development… do you think doing such a heavy root reduction prior to planting this fall is a good idea? Thanks so much for the insight

 

[Tbrshou]

Sorry for resurrecting this post but I am in the opposite situation as the original poster of this thread and I am looking for advice… I am going to put a newly acquired trident into the ground in a grow bag to grow out the trunk to my liking. I’m in zone 6-7 and planned on doing this in the fall time (roughly September-October) I need to perform some heavy root reduction though, as I plan on placing the roots over a disc to help promote nebari development… do you think doing such a heavy root reduction prior to planting this fall is a good idea? Thanks so much for the insight

I'm a creature of habit so for me all heavy root work, repotting and/or transplanting is done Feb-March and then placed in a unheated space for protection. I've never lost a tree doing this so it's MY regimen. Trident are resilient trees though.

 

[rdb00]

I'm a creature of habit so for me all heavy root work, repotting and/or transplanting is done Feb-March and then placed in an unheated space for protection. I've never lost a tree doing this so it's MY regimen. Trident are resilient trees though.

Hey I’m here for any and all advice people are willing to share and I’m all for using experience. My gut originally told me to play the slow game so I’ll probably end up doing your way

 

[Tbrshou]

Hey I’m here for any and all advice people are willing to share and I’m all for using experience. My gut originally told me to play the slow game so I’ll probably end up doing your way

It's worth doing some research for your climate and area. You possibly could do what your planning. As I said im a creature of habit and I've been successful so far so I just don't deviate from whats worked for me.

 

[River's Edge]

Sorry for resurrecting this post but I am in the opposite situation as the original poster of this thread and I am looking for advice… I am going to put a newly acquired trident into the ground in a grow bag to grow out the trunk to my liking. I’m in zone 6-7 and planned on doing this in the fall time (roughly September-October) I need to perform some heavy root reduction though, as I plan on placing the roots over a disc to help promote nebari development… do you think doing such a heavy root reduction prior to planting this fall is a good idea? Thanks so much for the insight

If planning on putting in the ground, just tease out the roots and do so this fall. Forget about the heavy root reduction. If waiting until the early spring/ late winter than the root rediuction makes sense.

 

[rdb00]

If planning on putting in the ground, just tease out the roots and do so this fall. Forget about the heavy root reduction. If waiting until the early spring/ late winter than the root rediuction makes sense.

Thank you for your insight! This community has been very helpful for someone like me who is new to this

 

[Shibui]

Why plant in the ground in Fall then dig again in Spring before it starts growing? You'll obviously get no growth over winter. Just seems like extra work for no benefit. I'd keep it in the pot for winter then go full root prune and plant in the ground at the appropriate time in Spring.
All done in one operation, ready to grow.
Not sure what growth rates up there will be like but, please don't leave it 7 years without any attention. That might give you a thick trunk but also many other complications like large chops to heal up, no taper or bends in the trunk, poor nebari, etc.
Prune regularly for better shape and trunk taper which usually also means smaller pruning cuts to heal. Regular root pruning definitely gives much better nebari. I dig and prune tridents every year here but with slower growth, every 2 years might give good results.

 

[rdb00]

Why plant in the ground in Fall then dig again in Spring before it starts growing? You'll obviously get no growth over winter. Just seems like extra work for no benefit. I'd keep it in the pot for winter then go full root prune and plant in the ground at the appropriate time in Spring.
All done in one operation, ready to grow.
Not sure what growth rates up there will be like but, please don't leave it 7 years without any attention. That might give you a thick trunk but also many other complications like large chops to heal up, no taper or bends in the trunk, poor nebari, etc.
Prune regularly for better shape and trunk taper which usually also means smaller pruning cuts to heal. Regular root pruning definitely gives much better nebari. I dig and prune tridents every year here but with slower growth, every 2 years might give good results.

I think I’m going to wait until spring for all the reasons you mention.

I’ll be putting it in a grow bag to make it a little easier to manage the root work and subsequent work each year when I need to take it out. I’m not sure if I will every year but definitely on a regular cadence.

Thanks for the insight!

 

[River's Edge]

Why plant in the ground in Fall then dig again in Spring before it starts growing? You'll obviously get no growth over winter. Just seems like extra work for no benefit. I'd keep it in the pot for winter then go full root prune and plant in the ground at the appropriate time in Spring.
All done in one operation, ready to grow.
Not sure what growth rates up there will be like but, please don't leave it 7 years without any attention. That might give you a thick trunk but also many other complications like large chops to heal up, no taper or bends in the trunk, poor nebari, etc.
Prune regularly for better shape and trunk taper which usually also means smaller pruning cuts to heal. Regular root pruning definitely gives much better nebari. I dig and prune tridents every year here but with slower growth, every 2 years might give good results.

Interesting take, pretty humorous actually! I was suggesting one or the other, not both. Thought that would be obvious. If the root work was most important wait until spring. If not, tease them out and put it in the ground this fall.
Just timing and approach, ground growing being the objective. Will be plenty of root work needed after the ground growing and during the developmental stage.