Traditional Bonsai VS Chinese?

[TreeKiller64]

So where now is the line between the traditionalist (Japanese) of Bonsai vs the Chinese way of Pen Jing? I've been wondering for about the last 15 years. I've been told what I do is wrong in certain circles,(that's the NICE WAY) and to been totally kicked to the CURB(in others). I have a problem with the way I studied in bonsai early (some years ago) about the "Guidelines" of Bonsai. Yes I've read the Books, (got about 40+ now) but I still feel its suck to hear the learned to tell the Newbies how to CARVE, WIRE, PRUNE, and CUT, trees that don't need as much that effort as we give them that advice. All I'm saying is I wish that Walter Pall and M. Kimura was around 20+ years ago for me. There is so much to learn from nature (like J.Naka said) too bad I didn't learn then and some of us seasoned veterans still seem to get the DRIFT. I always thought it was about the TREE(s) and the feeling that it conveys. (Let the artists be the artist)!!!!

 

[Ang3lfir3]

the line... if you happen to think there needs to be one... is where ever you would like it to be.... for me... there is no line

we have a strange household here with two bonsai artists of similar but differing taste ... I prefer the more gnarled ancient bizarre appearance most often associated with our teacher (who has been practicing naturalistic bonsai since before it was a thing 53+yrs) and Vic prefers to find a place in between by marrying those designs with the more stylized designs of the japanese style.

now, this is a place where many new artists come to ask for advise and I will freely give it. If I suggest someone is doing something wrong or could do something different I leave it to them to choose to take to my advise and do with it what they may. I will of course try to persuade them to understand my perspective but you can not teach the un-teachable. I appreciate those who choose a different path, I can only offer my opinion on design choices. Like many things time in the art does not automatically give a person skill or talent. I don't claim to have much of either however, but I can tell you that I have not been practicing bonsai 101 all this time.

I may not have clearly understood your intent here but I believe you are saying that some of the given suggestions are "too much". Actually I can't clearly understand what you are suggesting at all. If you are suggesting that you wish the ideas of natural bonsai were more accessible to practitioners 20 yrs ago then please realize that 20yrs ago people were horrified at some of the ideas we see as familiar and common place today. Bonsai in the US has evolved since then however it is a culture of slow change in this country steeped in silly ideas of ancient tradition and mystical "Rules". Americans love their "rules" and acceptance of change will take far longer here than in many other places.

p.s. btw technically Pen-Sai (single tree plantings in chinese style) are the predecessors to modern bonsai and therefore more "traditional" in my mind ....

 

[DaveV]

Taste in bonsai is kind of like misic - alternative, classic rock, jazz, country. I do however believe there are correct ways to prune certain tress. I personally like the traditional japanese and Pen Jing style- this is what attracted me to bonsia in the first place. I do find some of the naturalistic styles nice too. Have you ever seen the Larz Anderson collection in Boston. Take a look at it.

Its all up to what you like what ever makes enjoy the hobby. After all.... when you die, no one is going to care about your personal taste in bonsai.

 

[JudyB]

treekiller, can you please try to convey what you are trying to say again? I've read the post 3 times now, and can't discern the meaning behind the words... Maybe I'm just dense?

 

[rockm]

I think what he's trying to say is in here:
"but I still feel its suck to hear the learned to tell the Newbies how to CARVE, WIRE, PRUNE, and CUT, trees that don't need as much that effort as we give them that advice"

This isn't so much a contest between Penjing and bonsai as it is one of basic design. The rise of "naturalistic" bonsai has, unfortunately, given rise to thinking that simply NOT designing a tree is acceptable. This sounds harsh, but when someone says your trees may need more pruning, wiring and carving to become nicer, it doesn't mean they're insulting you. It means your tree may need more work.

Naturalistic bonsai and the more natural forms of Penjing require effort to make them so. Ask Walter Pall if there is more work involved in getting a tree to look more natural, or getting it into traditional bonsai form. He will most likely say the natural form requires more attention to detail and more work.

I hate to sound like the "learned" bonsai fools, but take a more subjective look at your trees...I mean step back, imagine they belong to someone else. Do they need some tweaking, overhauls, etc. I know all of my trees did after I'd been doing bonsai for about five years. I got used to seeing them and didn't really "see" them. Sometimes it takes someone else's eyes to see what should be obvious to the owner.

 

[JudyB]

I think what he's trying to say is in here:
take a more subjective look at your trees...I mean step back, imagine they belong to someone else. Do they need some tweaking, overhauls, etc. I know all of my trees did after I'd been doing bonsai for about five years. I got used to seeing them and didn't really "see" them. Sometimes it takes someone else's eyes to see what should be obvious to the owner.

Or a photo. I find that looking at pictures removes the gloss off my eyes when looking at my trees. Especially when you put them in a post...

But really, I don't understand why there is a problem here, aren't the "newbies" (or anyone for that matter) asking for direction? Isn't that what they are getting???
If that is what treekiller's point is...

I don't think it's a matter of anyone's line in the sand, people are just putting their opinions, and what they would do- out there. Which is what most people on a forum are looking for.

 

[Vance Wood]

It is after all a matter of preference and perception. Many of us have come at bonsai from divergent directions adopting different visual parameters that we consider acceptable and pleasing. Really, the bottom line is reached when you look at your trees and are not pleased with them. Then it is up to you to discover what there is about your tree that displeases you, not necessarily what displeases others.

Though you may want to consider what others say, this response may open a window to your problem, but sometimes there are those who will tell you your tree is crap just because they can, and there are others that will tell you it is wonderful, just to keep from hurting your feelings, when you know it isn't. The best thing you can do is find pictures of bonsai you really like and study them in detail to see what features about the tree float your boat. Study the trunk and the alignment of branches. This is usually where a problem can occur.

As to pigeon holeing your bonsai: Chinese, Japanese, Viet Namise, or what ever, there is only one pigeon hole you should shoot for. The good bonsai hole.

 

[grouper52]

Naturalistic bonsai and the more natural forms of Penjing require effort to make them so. Ask Walter Pall if there is more work involved in getting a tree to look more natural, or getting it into traditional bonsai form. He will most likely say the natural form requires more attention to detail and more work.

Exactly so, rockm.

To quote Walter from the Foreword to my book about Dan Robinson:

"To understand Dan's artistry, however, we must understand that his style is not called "naturalistic" because it is natural: It is not "natural." Naturalistic styling is not about the methods used - it is about the end result, the final bonsai giving us a very natural feeling. The bonsai should be as good as possible without displaying any trace of human hands. It should not look "artistic," "artificial," "contrived," "made," or "constructed." It should look as if nature had done it. But, this does not mean that we nature do it. . . . It is hard work to get to this stage. Naturalistic styling is not for the lazy. Many people think they can just let nature do the job and they will get a naturalistic piece of art eventually. But they will never get it. They are merely creating and maintaining material. They have to make a serious effort to style it eventually, because the naturalistic style is not about untidy looking trees, nor is it a shortcut. Actually, it is more difficult and takes longer than traditional styling. There is much more craft and art involved than meet the eye. While some accuse Dan of not working on his trees, the art is in the work not being visible."

 

[JudyB]

the art is in the work not being visible."

mmm, that says a lot in a few words.

 

[Klytus]

I thought it was the difference between Taoist philosophy of multiplicity and the more garbled hodgepodge of strident ideation in Japan giving rise to cookie cutters and whips stapled to kindling.

In China the mind bends,in Japan it's the wood.

 

[davetree]

In China the mind bends,in Japan it's the wood.

I don't think Japanese bonsai are that bad.

 

[Klytus]

Japan also has a Taoist influence,it's the way.

 

[raydomz]

Just read through this whole thing, not sure that this is really an arguement worth having.
Things like this are far too subjective. We can sit all day and type about what is art and what is not but we'll not move any further forward.
We can only really accept that things are different to different people, situations, and circumstances.

 

[Klytus]

I don't think we need to accept that,use of our forebrain is what distinguishes us from the animals.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

To quote Walter from the Foreword to my book about Dan Robinson:

that about covers it

 

[ghues]

Treekiller - maybe I'll have a stab at it....
I think we had similar discussions around these types of issues before…….most all agree that it comes down to a personal choice but maybe it’s a difference between those that have been trained in Japan or others who formulate their inspiration/preferences/techniques from Japan/China verses others who are trying/promoting a less conventional approach?
Perhaps we are seeing a wholesale change/evolution in this art – where you have many purists (based on Chinese or Japanese) and others who promote the more naturalistic approach.
Then maybe you’ve got another large component of this new age ….a practitioner like me…..(who has always marveled at or been inspired by the Asian culture) a backyard/backwoods/hillbilly bonsai hobbyist …….who knows that his trees will never win any major awards but we have fun trying to learn the tried and true techniques with our little trees.
Then there are the mavericks within the new movement, Nick Lenz comes to mind, who try’s unconventional designs with extraordinary results.
Cheers Graham

 

[jk_lewis]

Of course TreeKiller has the cart before the horse.

It is the Chinese who make the "traditional" bonsai. The Japanese are Johnny-come-latelys to the art. Penjing occurred well before bonsai made the scene. As usual, the Japanese "borrowed" it.

I think TreeKiller may have had one too many snipes at his trees and finally broke. ??????

 

[Klytus]

Classic Bonsai could be the term for these ponderous Chinese musings,we are talking about English language expressions of impressions of the ancient and perhaps more modern Far-East both 'real' and imagined.

The 'Classic Bonsai' of China,the 'Traditional' Bonsai of Japan,the 'Surprising' Bonsai among the Orangutans of Borneo.

 

[grouper52]

The 'Classic Bonsai' of China,the 'Traditional' Bonsai of Japan,the 'Surprising' Bonsai among the Orangutans of Borneo.

Your intellectual roots have long been an enigma for many of us here, but your knowing reference to the Orangutans starts to shed some light. Was Borneo ever a British colony? ))

 

[Vance Wood]

Classic Bonsai could be the term for these ponderous Chinese musings,we are talking about English language expressions of impressions of the ancient and perhaps more modern Far-East both 'real' and imagined.

The 'Classic Bonsai' of China,the 'Traditional' Bonsai of Japan,the 'Surprising' Bonsai among the Orangutans of Borneo.

I'm going to ask you a question straight out here that I sure many have thought about but were afraid to ask: Do you actually do bonsai at all?