To join a bonsai club or not

[eugenev2]

So one of my goals this year is not to necessarily join a bonsai club...rather to up my skill...mostly because i see how stagnate i've become in comparison to people who have been doing this as long as i have.
So i'm thinking of either joining a bonsai club or getting a bonsai "mentor" for a lack of a better word.

So what's your thoughts opinions/pros/cons/like/dislikes

I'll start off, i went to a workshop on the weekend, which was essentially a promotion for the club, first club locally i've chatted to that aren't anti akadama which was a good sign and they are considerably closer than previous options.
Now for my hesitation, although i doubt i met everyone i noticed that only a few members where truly knowledgeable, so i would scratch this up as a negative...ie if these people aren't there, i won't learn or as much at least
The other part i don't like is yearly bonsai fees and mostly a registration fee...not a fortune by any means...but combined i can get myself two bags of akadama...so in general (i know each club would differ), what do you get for these yearly fees and are they worth the 2 bags of akadama i will not be getting

 

[SeanS]

I’d say no to joining clubs in SA, they all seem absolutely rubbish!
Unless you want to grow acacias or ficus, and learn how to make concrete pots, then they seem great!

 

[eugenev2]

I’d say no to joining clubs in SA, they all seem absolutely rubbish!
Unless you want to grow acacias or ficus, and learn how to make concrete pots, then they seem great!

You are making it harder to catch up...you're one of the people i'm trying to catch up to

By the way...jealous of those maples

 

[leatherback]

So i'm thinking of either joining a bonsai club or getting a bonsai "mentor" for a lack of a better word.

Do this.
If

clubs in SA, they all seem absolutely rubbish

then

getting a bonsai "mentor"

can really boost your interest and attention to your trees.

 

[Shibui]

All groups of people have some personality issues. That's what humans seem to be like and bonsai clubs are no exception.

In any club there tends to be a larger group of newbies. Many of the beginners don't last long but there's always more coming in so having lots of less experienced compared to experts is to be expected.
Those with lots of experience tend to also be older. They either bow out gracefully or die on the job. Either way the ranks of the really experienced bonsai people don't seem to increase much so I expect you'll have to put up with lots of less experienced and just a few more expert members in any club.

Also not sure that a workshop is the place to find lots of really experienced club members. Not sure how it was organised but I think it is to be expected that most of those attending any workshop will be less experienced and looking to learn skills with only a couple of experts to help guide the newbies. I would not judge the club expertise on just that one experience.

I guess we could only accept highly skilled members to bolster the club skill level - but then you, and other beginners, would not be allowed in so that would defeat the purpose too.

One plus for clubs is that you'll get a range of ideas from different people. You don't have to follow everything but having one 'mentor' tends to see people stuck in one way of thinking and/or styling.
Yes, you will need to sift out the armchair experts and loud mouth wannabees but that's just part of life. Look past all that to find the quite achievers and try to make friends with them. That's where you can boost your own skill.

first club locally i've chatted to that aren't anti akadama which was a good sign

Since when was liking akadama a sign of bonsai expertise? I don't use akadama so I guess that means my trees must be rubbish and I have no real bonsai skill or knowledge?

 

[eugenev2]

All groups of people have some personality issues. That's what humans seem to be like and bonsai clubs are no exception.

In any club there tends to be a larger group of newbies. Many of the beginners don't last long but there's always more coming in so having lots of less experienced compared to experts is to be expected.
Those with lots of experience tend to also be older. They either bow out gracefully or die on the job. Either way the ranks of the really experienced bonsai people don't seem to increase much so I expect you'll have to put up with lots of less experienced and just a few more expert members in any club.

Also not sure that a workshop is the place to find lots of really experienced club members. Not sure how it was organised but I think it is to be expected that most of those attending any workshop will be less experienced and looking to learn skills with only a couple of experts to help guide the newbies. I would not judge the club expertise on just that one experience.

I guess we could only accept highly skilled members to bolster the club skill level - but then you, and other beginners, would not be allowed in so that would defeat the purpose too.

One plus for clubs is that you'll get a range of ideas from different people. You don't have to follow everything but having one 'mentor' tends to see people stuck in one way of thinking and/or styling.
Yes, you will need to sift out the armchair experts and loud mouth wannabees but that's just part of life. Look past all that to find the quite achievers and try to make friends with them. That's where you can boost your own skill.


Since when was liking akadama a sign of bonsai expertise? I don't use akadama so I guess that means my trees must be rubbish and I have no real bonsai skill or knowledge?

So yes, regarding the skill levels i agree, hence why i'm still conflicted. So to provide more context the workshop was essentially structured in such a way to introduce the bonsai club members and anyone else who wanted to join to "new" techniques learned from the US. I mention new in quotes, because from what i saw it was mostly Japanese techniques that were discussed (if the meaning of the techniques is still unclear, watch almost any ryan neil repotting episode) ...so i have my doubts on the new. So the club meeting happened directly after the workshop was finished, but as they themselves mentioned, not all member arrive at the start or stay the entire duration.

Sorry, didn't want to upset anyone with the akadama mention, it's more of a point of reference as, the fees + registration of the club is roughly the price of 2 bags of akadama locally and as people always indicate it is so expensive, it provides a local point of reference of what they charge, whether it is a cheap/expensive price to pay...and because it will most likely reduce my annual akadama purchases by at least one bag...money has to come from somewhere...economic environments are tight these days.

But to further explain the akadama bit, it's because the very first club i checked out, treated me like i was a heretic when only mentioning akadama, not to mention that i was told that i was talking nonsense and that their cow manure doesn't break down as quickly as akadama (no cow manure was harmed in this mention it was only mentioned for dramatic effect, please insert own choice of organic material). Basically if i join a club i would like to at least join a place that are open minded about all techniques/substrates and if they don't like using said technique/substrate provide good reasoning why those techniques/substrates aren't used rather than simply saying we've been following what Becky lucas did when she first introduced bonsai to South Africa

 

[penumbra]

Flip a coin.

 

[Shibui]

Basically if i join a club i would like to at least join a place that are open minded about all techniques/substrates and if they don't like using said technique/substrate provide good reasoning why those techniques/substrates aren't used rather than simply saying we've been following what Becky lucas did when she first introduced bonsai to South Africa

I agree totally.
Many clubs were definitely mired in tradition and ancient techniques when I started but that's nearly 40 years ago. There may still be some clubs here that are dominated by one or more traditionalists but the vast majority are much more progressive these days.
There will always be individuals that want to stick to tradition and outdated? techniques - we even see it here on Bnut. Try to look past those individuals to those with deeper knowledge rather than rote learning. I've found that most clubs have those people but they may not stand front and centre. You'll usually need to spend more than a couple of hors to actually identify those quiet achievers.

it's more of a point of reference as, the fees + registration of the club is roughly the price of 2 bags of akadama locally and as people always indicate it is so expensive, it provides a local point of reference of what they charge, whether it is a cheap/expensive price to pay...and because it will most likely reduce my annual akadama purchases by at least one bag...money has to come from somewhere...economic environments are tight these days.

Interesting economic reference point. I'll have to try to convert club fees to bags of akadama to see how we stack up over here.

How would one track down someone with the requisite bonsai skills if you were not a member of a club? Also how many bags of akadama would a mentor likely charge? Working with a professional or semi-pro would almost certainly set you back more than 2 bags?
Assuming you can find someone who might provide help gratis, would an experienced club member take on a mentee(?) if they were not part of their club?
If the expert is not a member of a club how would you find them? Bonsai growers do not tend to advertise the fact widely.

Neil

 

[bwaynef]

Logistics of finding one is up to you, but I've found working with a teacher to expedite my learning drastically.

 

[BrianBay9]

Sounds like you two guys in Johannesburg should start your own working group.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

Don’t base your decision on workshops, instead take a look at the topics of meetings held over the last couple of years. If they’re not doing anything that you think will help build your skills then avoid them. I know a club that has basically settled into the same tired list of topics, with maybe one decent workshop or invited guest presentation a year. The leadership looks forward to outside events so they don’t have to hold a meeting that month! Then there are groups like Portland that are very proactive. Good luck with your search.

 

[SeanS]

To give some context to the local South African bonsai club scene…
Most bonsai practitioners n South Africa are still stuck in the 80s when it comes to techniques, mindsets of what makes a good tree, soil (as @eugenev2 alluded to with the mention of akadama) etc.
They are very much focussed on “African style”, because we live in Africa so all bonsai must look like African savannah trees.
Species are primarily acacias, ficus burt-davii, celtis, maybe a procumbens or 2, Chinese elms if you look hard enough, olives.
Pots are always oversized, and unglazed. Sometimes they’re concrete.

We are so far behind the international standard.

Bring a nicely developed Japanese styled maple or black pine to a local show and it will not stand a chance against a ficus or olive in a horribly paired pot.

Our local scene is just crap IMO

There are a handful of South African enthusiasts/practitioners who are trying to advance the local scene. As Eugue mentioned I am one of them (thank you ).
Unfortunately we are few and far between. Our only real outlet is on social media where our work can be seen and appreciated by mostly non South African bonsai people.

Hence my earlier comment to stay away from SA clubs if you actually want to learn and advance your skills.

So B’nutters, please understand that our “clubs” are not like yours.

 

[SeanS]

This is pretty much South African bonsai

 

[penumbra]

So B’nutters, please understand that our “clubs” are not like yours.

All the more reason to 'get up on it'.

 

[eugenev2]

I agree totally.
Many clubs were definitely mired in tradition and ancient techniques when I started but that's nearly 40 years ago. There may still be some clubs here that are dominated by one or more traditionalists but the vast majority are much more progressive these days.
There will always be individuals that want to stick to tradition and outdated? techniques - we even see it here on Bnut. Try to look past those individuals to those with deeper knowledge rather than rote learning. I've found that most clubs have those people but they may not stand front and centre. You'll usually need to spend more than a couple of hors to actually identify those quiet achievers.


Interesting economic reference point. I'll have to try to convert club fees to bags of akadama to see how we stack up over here.

How would one track down someone with the requisite bonsai skills if you were not a member of a club? Also how many bags of akadama would a mentor likely charge? Working with a professional or semi-pro would almost certainly set you back more than 2 bags?
Assuming you can find someone who might provide help gratis, would an experienced club member take on a mentee(?) if they were not part of their club?
If the expert is not a member of a club how would you find them? Bonsai growers do not tend to advertise the fact widely.

Neil

All things i've thought about as well as struggling to figure out

Logistics of finding one is up to you, but I've found working with a teacher to expedite my learning drastically.

Out of interest which option did you go with? ie club/free mentor/paid for mentor

Sounds like you two guys in Johannesburg should start your own working group.

Don't want to assume here on sean's part, as sean's starting to develop some interesting trees there. But it might be a situation of the blind leading the blind here
Also i guess our approaches are different, he wants further/develop an art form, i just want to make some kickass trees that i like

Don’t base your decision on workshops, instead take a look at the topics of meetings held over the last couple of years. If they’re not doing anything that you think will help build your skills then avoid them. I know a club that has basically settled into the same tired list of topics, with maybe one decent workshop or invited guest presentation a year. The leadership looks forward to outside events so they don’t have to hold a meeting that month! Then there are groups like Portland that are very proactive. Good luck with your search.

I'm going to try this suggestion...if they allow me...and check them out in a "normal" situation

To give some context to the local South African bonsai club scene…
Most bonsai practitioners n South Africa are still stuck in the 80s when it comes to techniques, mindsets of what makes a good tree, soil (as @eugenev2 alluded to with the mention of akadama) etc.
They are very much focussed on “African style”, because we live in Africa so all bonsai must look like African savannah trees.
Species are primarily acacias, ficus burt-davii, celtis, maybe a procumbens or 2, Chinese elms if you look hard enough, olives.
Pots are always oversized, and unglazed. Sometimes they’re concrete.

We are so far behind the international standard.

Bring a nicely developed Japanese styled maple or black pine to a local show and it will not stand a chance against a ficus or olive in a horribly paired pot.

Our local scene is just crap IMO

There are a handful of South African enthusiasts/practitioners who are trying to advance the local scene. As Eugue mentioned I am one of them (thank you ).
Unfortunately we are few and far between. Our only real outlet is on social media where our work can be seen and appreciated by mostly non South African bonsai people.

Hence my earlier comment to stay away from SA clubs if you actually want to learn and advance your skills.

So B’nutters, please understand that our “clubs” are not like yours.

I guess this one is a bit of philosophical and psychological debate as taste/beauty gets influenced by environment, other cultural influences and upbringing not too mention during which time period...ie 1980 vs say 2000s. Also as someone that mostly grew up in Johannesburg i don't have an attachment to the "African style" as it's not the trees i grew up seeing on a daily basis. But my personal opinion is that you need to first master the original before creating your own...you don't see people just jumping into algebra, they have to learn the 1 +1 first.

 

[SeanS]

Also i guess our approaches are different, he wants further/develop an art form, i just want to make some kickass trees that i like

Small clarification, I’m trying to create some the best locally grown bonsai in the country

 

[bwaynef]

Out of interest which option did you go with? ie club/free mentor/paid for mentor

I've been attending Boon's Intensive program.

I don't know how applicable it would be for you, but Boon has recommended a few videos from Terry Erasmus who's from SA.

 

[eugenev2]

I've been attending Boon's Intensive program.

I don't know how applicable it would be for you, but Boon has recommended a few videos from Terry Erasmus who's from SA.

Thanks yes, i do follow him, he's got a pretty good blog as well.
The issue more is, if i have a question or a step doesn't make sense, or more often then not my why questions (i like to understand how things work)...which can irritates people...i cannot ask anyone and if you ask the internet without having the same context the answers can vary drastically