Tiny Shohin Trident Maple... What to do

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Hi everyone!

What would be the next step for this little Trident? I’m thinking get it repotted into a larger container maybe a pond basket and grow it out for a few years before any styling takes place.

How would I improve the nebari during the next few years if I was to plant it in a pond basket.
 

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Greetings!

If you are going to develop the nebari, you must get it squared away properly and right of. I’d suggest you get it on a flat board and grow it out properly In a shallow, flat, like an Anderson flat.

To figure out how to start in on this procedure, look up the Ebihara Technique. It’s explained on multiple bonsai sites, including Bonsai Tonight, You tube etc. it looks really weird, but produces spectacular results.

cheers
DSD sends
 
I would airlayer it now and protect from freezing.

B5B269C2-9260-48CF-951B-FF3C27C9C5DD.jpeg

Just use a smaller diameter plastic pot, cut a hole the size of the trunk in the bottom and split the side, wrap around tree and secure to soil with aluminum hooks. Fill the pot with 100% akadama and layer top with 1/4” screened spagnum. Do not trim ANY foliage during growing season, as long as you cut deep enough into sap wood and not allow a new bridge you’ll be able to separate this fall with full 360 deg roots and a much better nabari and tree. Also, add an aluminum wire tight against top cut, it will create nabari flare in 5 months.

0596AF27-18E5-4B99-8743-12A14B8E7C1B.jpeg


D4B56ECC-0194-4EEE-B4D8-148E3013455E.jpeg
 
I'm not sure what growing this tree out will achieve. Mot is quite likely to ruin what branches there are and you may need to start them all again. I think it is time to consolidate, select the real branches and really start developing ramification. There are currently way too many branches and many growing at odd angles and directions. Sections with long internodes will show up later when you try to develop better ramification so should be cut back now to get better branching.

Layering is one way to get a radial root system but sometimes not necessary. Good root pruning can make a big difference to enhance the existing roots. Tridents are really good at growing new roots so you can get a good response by pruning all vertical roots really short and shortening any long, thick laterals quite short.
The slight reverse taper down low is bothering me a little so the layer suggested by @SantaFeBonsai has some merit to get rid of that section but it will also shorten the trunk quite a lot so lower branches will then be redundant. The shorter trunk will have better taper down low but would also need to be followed with a higher trunk chop to remove some of the straight section of more recent growth.
 
This looks really remarkably like my Beni Chidori. Mine is from Japan, perhaps yours was? Mine simply ate more than yours and is fatter...
Same bark texture, same shape, same 2 large radial roots nebari, even same pot except the colour...


Anyways, yeah I think it needs to grow a bit. Which is perfectly normal in my limited experience, so don't be disheartened by that. Its certainly a good start to tree, has movement and interest and taper. Bark is a bit aged too.
I think the bigger question is; what do you want from the tree? What kind of tree do you envision?
If you have no image of what you want, then I don't think you will ever achieve it.

If you insist on a better nebari, then yeah, as previous comments suggest, ground/air layer it or plant in to something bigger and arrange roots better, then feed it well and give it time to develop the nebari.
If you are happy with the current nebari (which is perfectly acceptable, its your tree) then I would still plant in to something bigger for a few years, just to grow some good primaries (you can still sort roots and work on a better nebari at the same time), as you start to get in to secondary and tertiary, plant it in to something smaller and reduce the roots and ramify.

I think its a good little tree and you could do something nice with it.
 
Greetings!

If you are going to develop the nebari, you must get it squared away properly and right of. I’d suggest you get it on a flat board and grow it out properly In a shallow, flat, like an Anderson flat.

To figure out how to start in on this procedure, look up the Ebihara Technique. It’s explained on multiple bonsai sites, including Bonsai Tonight, You tube etc. it looks really weird, but produces spectacular results.

cheers
DSD sends
I’ve just read through a thread on here about it found this image that explains it well in pictures. Thanks for that!
 

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I would airlayer it now and protect from freezing.

View attachment 353239

Just use a smaller diameter plastic pot, cut a hole the size of the trunk in the bottom and split the side, wrap around tree and secure to soil with aluminum hooks. Fill the pot with 100% akadama and layer top with 1/4” screened spagnum. Do not trim ANY foliage during growing season, as long as you cut deep enough into sap wood and not allow a new bridge you’ll be able to separate this fall with full 360 deg roots and a much better nabari and tree. Also, add an aluminum wire tight against top cut, it will create nabari flare in 5 months.

View attachment 353241


View attachment 353242
This is what I’m going to do! That’s crazy results! We’ve got constant snow here in the U.K. at the moment I can keep it quite out of the way of the elements but maybe I should wrap the air layer pot in bubble wrap until the frost has passed to try and insulate it a bit?
 
I'm not sure what growing this tree out will achieve. Mot is quite likely to ruin what branches there are and you may need to start them all again. I think it is time to consolidate, select the real branches and really start developing ramification. There are currently way too many branches and many growing at odd angles and directions. Sections with long internodes will show up later when you try to develop better ramification so should be cut back now to get better branching.

Layering is one way to get a radial root system but sometimes not necessary. Good root pruning can make a big difference to enhance the existing roots. Tridents are really good at growing new roots so you can get a good response by pruning all vertical roots really short and shortening any long, thick laterals quite short.
The slight reverse taper down low is bothering me a little so the layer suggested by @SantaFeBonsai has some merit to get rid of that section but it will also shorten the trunk quite a lot so lower branches will then be redundant. The shorter trunk will have better taper down low but would also need to be followed with a higher trunk chop to remove some of the straight section of more recent growth.
I’m gonna go with the layer I knew it had defects when I bought it and understand I can’t start styling or placing branches until the nebari is at a good level.
 
This looks really remarkably like my Beni Chidori. Mine is from Japan, perhaps yours was? Mine simply ate more than yours and is fatter...
Same bark texture, same shape, same 2 large radial roots nebari, even same pot except the colour...


Anyways, yeah I think it needs to grow a bit. Which is perfectly normal in my limited experience, so don't be disheartened by that. Its certainly a good start to tree, has movement and interest and taper. Bark is a bit aged too.
I think the bigger question is; what do you want from the tree? What kind of tree do you envision?
If you have no image of what you want, then I don't think you will ever achieve it.

If you insist on a better nebari, then yeah, as previous comments suggest, ground/air layer it or plant in to something bigger and arrange roots better, then feed it well and give it time to develop the nebari.
If you are happy with the current nebari (which is perfectly acceptable, its your tree) then I would still plant in to something bigger for a few years, just to grow some good primaries (you can still sort roots and work on a better nebari at the same time), as you start to get in to secondary and tertiary, plant it in to something smaller and reduce the roots and ramify.

I think its a good little tree and you could do something nice with it.
It’s an import from Japan aswell. That’s a nice tree you’ve got there.
I’m gonna go with the layer I want a nice spread of surface roots. I have limited space so looking to make mostly shohin sized trees so nebari and trunk taper are first on the check list for me!
 
It’s an import from Japan aswell. That’s a nice tree you’ve got there.
I’m gonna go with the layer I want a nice spread of surface roots. I have limited space so looking to make mostly shohin sized trees so nebari and trunk taper are first on the check list for me!
Ok cool, where did you get it? I believe mine came from Ken at Windy Bank.

Health is first priority, then nebari, then trunk then branches then ramification.
 
I don't know that I wouldn't layer it.....
But I think I'd be cautious of what it entails.

Santa Fe's layer is nice....but what does the top look like? You don't really get radial roots without "radial" or radical top.

My thing goes back to what Shibui's saying about growing it out ....sure.... layering isn't exactly growing it out, but you don't want to be cutting it back a lot while trying to grow roots.

Straight away most will have to be cut so it doesn't go bad when you're waiting for the layer.

Capture+_2021-02-09-07-21-53.png

You're not left with much to produce roots.

I think you should first arrange the branches to be something more permanent that will allow you to layer more safely.

Sorce
 
@SantaFeBonsai I was wondering how you got that crazy nebari flair directly from layering when I saw your layer thread. I’ve been applying my wire tourniquets to my layers halfway up my ringed trunk sections purely to stop bridging. I’ll definitely be pushing it right up snug against the bottom of my layers from now on. Thanks!
 
I don't know that I wouldn't layer it.....
But I think I'd be cautious of what it entails.

Santa Fe's layer is nice....but what does the top look like? You don't really get radial roots without "radial" or radical top.

My thing goes back to what Shibui's saying about growing it out ....sure.... layering isn't exactly growing it out, but you don't want to be cutting it back a lot while trying to grow roots.

Straight away most will have to be cut so it doesn't go bad when you're waiting for the layer.

View attachment 353253

You're not left with much to produce roots.

I think you should first arrange the branches to be something more permanent that will allow you to layer more safely.

Sorce
If I identify where my new leader will be and identify where my first branch will be I can make sure they don’t get to the point of no return in terms of inverse taper or swelling wise. Everything else will be left to use as extra power to get the new roots growing. Well I hope...
 
I wanted to reiterate the same thing that I mentioned in your other Trident Thread. Again, here you have multiple branches originating from one point. This will result in an ugly bulge. I think to resolve this you need to cut off the uppermost section and then select one of the branches in the whorl and wire it upwards as the new leader. Keep a remaining branch and remove the others. There are other places where this is happening. Simply prune to no more than two shoots.

BB3CD9CE-4F6F-45CE-BD34-991DF9AC0878~2.jpeg

Cory
 
Taking it a step further; if all goes to plan you’ll sever the layer at the bottom cut next fall at peak leaf drop and late winter you’ll remove the rest of the sap wood below roots and do a full repot (when the Ebihara method would actually get quick results), a perfect time to layer that upper straight portion and have fun with another tree but shito size.

This one started as a little shit-o also 🤣

14A5960C-F742-4AEF-854B-68E61948768F.jpeg
 
Taking it a step further; if all goes to plan you’ll sever the layer at the bottom cut next fall at peak leaf drop and late winter you’ll remove the rest of the sap wood below roots and do a full repot (when the Ebihara method would actually get quick results), a perfect time to layer that upper straight portion and have fun with another tree but shito size.

This one started as a little shit-o also 🤣

View attachment 353289
sweet clump.
 
I decided on making the decision about the potential air layer when it came to repotting the tree so I could check the roots to see the potential before committing to the layer.

Here is what took place;

I found quite a good root mass and decided to just place the whole tree on a board and plant it into a bigger training pot.

I’m going to let this tree run wild for the season to let the roots really fill the pot and hopefully thicken up the roots which are above the board.
 

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This, in my eyes is not looking too good. My other trident looks a lot healthier than this one. I know when they break bud they are droopy like that but something is telling me this isn’t just that.

what do you guys think?
 

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