The Effects of Temperature

[dbonsaiw]

Prior to getting started in bonsai, I always associated tree growth with sunlight alone, never giving much though to temperature. Obviously, however, it is temperature that triggers trees to go into and come out of dormancy, not sunlight. Yes, heat comes from sunlight, but we all know that trees can be taken out of dormancy with no sunlight at all - a hot closet can do the trick (in fact, that's why we don't keep our deciduous trees indoors for the winter). In doing the bonsai two-step, I thought "hey, why can't I increase temperature in the spring to increase the tree's growth?". So I have been conducting an experiment - one of the 5 trees I blind chopped this spring gets to come into the house every night and is assured temps in the 60s until about 6:30 a.m. when I bring it back out for the sun. While only one of the blind chops is backbudding a bit, the one I have been bringing in is really doing well with at least 6 buds so far and all lower than 4 inches from the soil (I left about 11" of the trunk and grew nothing higher up).

I understand that my experimental group is rather small (and that the two step is for freezing conditions), but wanted to hear what other people thought about continuing the bonsai two-step until temps are consistently north of 55, but only at night and then only with trees for which we are looking to speed up and increase back budding.

 

[Carol 83]

So I have been conducting an experiment - one of the 5 trees I blind chopped this spring gets to come into the house every night and is assured temps in the 60s until about 6:30 a.m. when I bring it back out for the sun. While only one of the blind chops is backbudding a bit, the one I have been bringing in is really doing well with at least 6 buds so far and all lower than 4 inches from the soil (I left about 11" of the trunk and grew nothing higher up).

That's an interesting experiment. I chopped a crape almost two weeks ago, and there's nothing going on yet. But it's been really cool here. If it wasn't going to warm up significantly in the next couple of days, I would try it.

 

[Dav4]

Truthfully, I think the 2-step is a necessity at times to maintain health and prevent damage, but potentially deleterious if done over a longer period of time. Trees evolved to spend their entire life in one spot, and the constant 2-step/moving in and out will increase the risk of root or bud damage, particularly if the tree has been recently re-potted. Also, the dramatic swing in temps and ambient humidity will be a negative for good growth as trees like growing in high relative humidity which you absolutely don't have inside. The KISS principle absolutely applies here, imo.

 

[ShadyStump]

Not that @Dav4 doesn't have a good point, but I think most species can manage it. Weather is notoriously unpredictable everywhere in the world. If trees didn't have the wherewithal to withstand it, they wouldn't survive.

That said, I recall a conversation here some time back where we tried to put our finger on just what sparks dormancy in trees. Temperature was of course the first culprit talked about, but given the propensity for some trees to survive in growing zone X at latitude X but not in the same zone X at latitude Y, it was determined that daylight hours as well as intensity play factors as well. Essentially one Nutter couldn't give his maples a proper dormancy in a California winter, but at the same Southern latitude another Nutter had no problems though the winter temperature average was comparable. I pointed out that a Southern hemisphere winter wouldn't get as intense daylight because the Earth is quite literally further away from the Sun at that time.

There's a relationship between temperature, light duration, and light intensity. You can compensate to some extent for one by adjusting the others. Anyone who's grown indoors under lights knows the trade off between light intensity and light duration, and that you can only adjust these so much. Throw temperature into the equation, and now you're playing a very complex game.

I'd say @cmeg1 is our resident expert here, considering his mad science experiments growing indoors. He might be able to shed some light (friggin puns always sneaking up on me) on the subject.

 

[Hack Yeah!]

Maybe next year start another trial. Instead of taking your trees to the heat, try taking the heat to your trees. Maybe sit them on a heating cable? If course I'm assuming temps remain above freezing as to not damage the foliage.

 

[LittleDingus]

Simply physics tells us that heat is energy. For the vast majority of chemical reactions warmer = faster. Viscosity lowers as temperature increases...sap flows easier.

Push it to far though and protiens denatured, etc...

There is lots of information on photosynthesis rates vs temperatures. Warmer = faster right up to the point where warmer starts denatured reactants.

What would be interesting is the interplay between growth speed and internode distance. Sure, warmer temps speed growth...but at the expense of tight internodes, perhaps??

 

[ShadyStump]

Simply physics tells us that heat is energy. For the vast majority of chemical reactions warmer = faster. Viscosity lowers as temperature increases...sap flows easier.

Push it to far though and protiens denatured, etc...

There is lots of information on photosynthesis rates vs temperatures. Warmer = faster right up to the point where warmer starts denatured reactants.

What would be interesting is the interplay between growth speed and internode distance. Sure, warmer temps speed growth...but at the expense of tight internodes, perhaps??

That's a very interesting thought, actually. In the plants I'm growing with students at work (indoors, under lights, fairly constant and controlled environment) I noticed that high nitrogen fert will give an explosion of growth, but the internodes are several times as long. Now I want to try recreating the same conditions, but play with the temperature.

 

[Dav4]

There's no doubt that warm/ideal temperatures, alone, would positively affect growth, but moving the plant introduces all kinds of confounders into the equation that, imo, have the same impact positively or negatively as temperature.

 

[Cajunrider]

That's a very interesting thought, actually. In the plants I'm growing with students at work (indoors, under lights, fairly constant and controlled environment) I noticed that high nitrogen fert will give an explosion of growth, but the internodes are several times as long. Now I want to try recreating the same conditions, but play with the temperature.

I've learned that with my maples and rainbow eucalyptus. I won't fertilize those trees until we get past early spring when the shoots are exploding. I wait until I am ready to push for foliage. For BC it doesn't matter, BC will bud any where once a branch is big enough.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

That's a very interesting thought, actually. In the plants I'm growing with students at work (indoors, under lights, fairly constant and controlled environment) I noticed that high nitrogen fert will give an explosion of growth, but the internodes are several times as long. Now I want to try recreating the same conditions, but play with the temperature.

Low temperature and high light intensity can shorten internode length considerably.
The length is mainly a trait that's used to increase respiration and airflow. If plants don't need to shed the heat, size goes down.
High light intensity alone can do the same "dwarfing" but combined with low temps the effects are magnified.

 

[sorce]

So many thoughts......

I believe light and temperature are influencers to a scenario already built in. I have a weed growing in my basement ficus with super random, like days fully off or on and no schedule, lighting, spare a glassblock window, and a pothos on the windowsill in the kitchen. Both started growing in spring as if they knew when it was.

They do.

A seed knows when it was created and when it started growing, that's all it ever needs to understand when to go dormant and come out of dormancy.

Everything else, including the oft humanly forgotten, pressure, is just an influencer, hints for the year, and what we tend to confuse them most with when we move them.

I'm also convinced the fungi register all this stuff even better, so connected to the network, trees get even more information about appropriate times, from larger trees.

For me, a tree sprouted in a box is naturally akin to a tree covered in flood mess, rockfall, or other debris, in these situations, light can't be the only influencer, but it still exists.

I reckon allowing roots to dive into earth for the duration of this experiment will Always make for better growth than any temperatures, mostly because that then is the section the tree gets to set up it's doordash order of nutrients from the local microbiome.

A long time ago I came to the conclusion that you in fact can't speed this process up.

However, by removing everything that makes it take longer, you can actually speed up the process.

This thought becomes a detriment in this regard.

For BC it doesn't matter, BC will bud any where once a branch is big enough.

While this is true, it does matter to someone trying to speed up a process, since a sitting bud takes a cut to grow, while a bare branch needs, I would guess at least 2 extra weeks to sprout.

We must work perfectly horticulturally for the design. This speeds up the process.

I polled 100 trees and none of them said they found perfection indoors, or with chemical ferts.

Peep this, should be in the Wow thread.

Sorce

 

[Cajunrider]

So many thoughts......

I believe light and temperature are influencers to a scenario already built in. I have a weed growing in my basement ficus with super random, like days fully off or on and no schedule, lighting, spare a glassblock window, and a pothos on the windowsill in the kitchen. Both started growing in spring as if they knew when it was.

They do.

A seed knows when it was created and when it started growing, that's all it ever needs to understand when to go dormant and come out of dormancy.

Everything else, including the oft humanly forgotten, pressure, is just an influencer, hints for the year, and what we tend to confuse them most with when we move them.

I'm also convinced the fungi register all this stuff even better, so connected to the network, trees get even more information about appropriate times, from larger trees.

For me, a tree sprouted in a box is naturally akin to a tree covered in flood mess, rockfall, or other debris, in these situations, light can't be the only influencer, but it still exists.

I reckon allowing roots to dive into earth for the duration of this experiment will Always make for better growth than any temperatures, mostly because that then is the section the tree gets to set up it's doordash order of nutrients from the local microbiome.

A long time ago I came to the conclusion that you in fact can't speed this process up.

However, by removing everything that makes it take longer, you can actually speed up the process.

This thought becomes a detriment in this regard.

While this is true, it does matter to someone trying to speed up a process, since a sitting bud takes a cut to grow, while a bare branch needs, I would guess at least 2 extra weeks to sprout.

We must work perfectly horticulturally for the design. This speeds up the process.

I polled 100 trees and none of them said they found perfection indoors, or with chemical ferts.

Peep this, should be in the Wow thread.

Sorce

This is a little bit off the temperature topic but we are discussing tree growth any way so here goes my question.
I've read in multiple places that I should pinch off the trunk shoots of my collected BCs so the growth will be strong on the branches I selected. I feel that this is way too early. I just pulled the trees out of the ground and pretty much pruned off nearly all the roots. I feel that is is better to let all the shoots grow at least a few months so the trees get some energy to regrow the roots below. I can prune most of them off a little bit later. I just hate to see the tree expending all its reserved energy to push growth and I just deplete it without giving the tree a chance to replenish the energy and get itself healthy. I understand that I am growing bonsai and need to limit the growth but I just feel that pinching them off right after collection is counter productive. What do you sage bonsai nutters think?

 

[sorce]

I believe the entirety of the equation is relative to the topic.

Perhaps higher temp + pressure A = growth.
And higher temp + pressure B = less growth.

Without a pressure measure you could leave yourself spinning for answers that can't be determined.

As far as cutting that growth...

Should be determined by careful observation of your other processes at the time.
I actually recently came to solidification in that EVERYTHING should always be a case by exact case basis. (Not "it depends" just to say it)

Your case sounds like you should leave it.

I am working to better understand cross talk timing.

In another video I recently came across, there was a story told about a group of students in some cave in Oregon where you can see roots of the old growth forest above growing into the cave, dripping. They injected dye into the tree above and left some poor sober sap to wait for the dye to reach the cave while the rest went to the bar, they didn't make it to the bar because it only took 3 minutes.

That's a lot faster than I expected, but it was admitted they still don't know the timing of the actual different processing signals, but they should be observable....

The problem we have being, nothing is properly observable if we do not allow the tree it's most natural life.

Anyway, I believe the tree already knows in fall what it will produce in spring. So anything removed may put that energy into other growth, but that means longer internodes and less healthy growth if anything. It becomes desperation growth.

Desperation is the killer of design.

Every "input", be it chemical or just pruning, causes desperation.

Desperation is what proves it true that a tree doesn't give a shit about design.

Except for that it does, obviously, the natural form of a tree is beautiful, perfect.

So using inputs as close to natural as possible is always best IMO. This includes pruning a tree only when it would be naturally destroyed or abandoned.

I read a thing from or somehow associated with Owen Reich a long time ago, that said you can't create taper with multiple prunings in one year. So to me, any more pruning than directly before growth in spring and post summer solstice is wasted energy, time, and effort.

We must JOIN the rythym, not attempt to lead it.

Most Bonsai Artists, even famous ones, are doubledutchers getting smacked in the neck with a rope.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

Lol, you remember them old jump ropes with the plastic sticks covering the line....

If we use chemicals, that's the rope we're getting struck with, pinches too.

Sorce

 

[Cajunrider]

Anyway, I believe the tree already knows in fall what it will produce in spring. So anything removed may put that energy into other growth, but that means longer internodes and less healthy growth if anything. It becomes desperation growth.

So true. For me I think of all the shoots I am seeing on my collected BCs as desperation growth to restart the energy collection cycle to survive. I am not going to kill that desperation growth until I think the tree is healthy enough.

 

[dbonsaiw]

Lots of food for thought. My concern, I believe shared by Dav4, was the temperature fluctuation. Most days, the experiment went off without a hitch. High 50s during the day, 60s in the sun, with temps falling at night to the mid to low 40s. By the time the sun came back out it was back in the 50s, and then soon in the 60s, so the fluctuations weren't so bad. The past few days have been colder and the temp swing larger when I bring it back out. I assume the increase in activity would result in longer internodes, but will advise. Looks like spring will officially be here later in the week with temps staying in the 50s at night, so the experiment will come to an end.

 

[Wood]

Michael Hagedorn talks about a somewhat related phenomenon in Bonsai Heresy. I'm a little fuzzy on the details, but the gist of it was this. Someone's deciduous trees were having long-term health issues in a place where the nighttime temperature wasn't very different than the daytime temperature (SoCal?). After moving the trees for a season to Portland, where the daytime high wasn't much different, but the nighttime low was much lower, the health of the trees improved dramatically. He was pointing to the long-term necessity of a daily temperature swing for the health of a tree.

Not sure if that would equally apply to a tree coming out of dormancy. This tree still has 11 months in a year to experience daily temperature differentials

 

[dbonsaiw]

Without a pressure measure you could leave yourself spinning for answers that can't be determined.

Why would the air pressure in my backyard differ from inside the house? I would assume it to be a constant for my purposes.

 

[sorce]

Why would the air pressure in my backyard differ from inside the house?

....... temperature?

Sorce

 

[MichaelS]

So many thoughts......

I believe light and temperature are influencers to a scenario already built in. I have a weed growing in my basement ficus with super random, like days fully off or on and no schedule, lighting, spare a glassblock window, and a pothos on the windowsill in the kitchen. Both started growing in spring as if they knew when it was.

They do.

A seed knows when it was created and when it started growing, that's all it ever needs to understand when to go dormant and come out of dormancy.



Peep this, should be in the Wow thread.


Sorce

I love how the caffeine kicks in around 50:45