Supplies for Beginner, American Persimmon

[FrozenTrout]

Hi everyone! My girlfriend is looking to getting into bonsai trees, and wants some supplies for Christmas. I know it’s a bit late, but want to at least get things ordered, even if they don’t arrive on time.

For some background, we live in Griffin, which is about 45 minutes south of Atlanta; I believe it’s USDA zone 8a. We got a house a few years ago and she’s been really into planting native plants in the yard. Over the summer we were in Asheville and visited the North Carolina Arboretum. She was fascinated by the bonsai exhibit they have, and learning that bonsai isn’t limited to a few specific species. We have some American persimmon trees in our backyard, and she’s thinking of digging up a baby tree and potting it.

I’ve been trying to do some research, but have to admit it’s a bit overwhelming. I know nothing about plants in general. From what I can gather, it seems the best time for her to actually pot the tree would be in late summer, and keeping it outside. What I’m not sure is what size/kind of pot would be best for this, and what other supplies (and books) would be helpful.

Can you offer any guidance or recommendations? Thank you!

 

[Michael P]

The best time for your girlfriend to collect (dig) the tree would be late winter or very early spring as the buds begin to swell but before the new leaves open. Try to collect several if possible because not all will survive. For this, she probably has all the tools she needs: a sharp shovel, a nursery pot, and some reasonably good potting soil. The first step is getting the tree into a generously sized pot and keeping it alive.

Good luck! There is a very active bonsai community in Atlanta maybe someone from that area will respond. Or post a new thread along the lines of "Getting started with bonsai near Atlanta?"

 

[rockm]

Hi everyone! My girlfriend is looking to getting into bonsai trees, and wants some supplies for Christmas. I know it’s a bit late, but want to at least get things ordered, even if they don’t arrive on time.

For some background, we live in Griffin, which is about 45 minutes south of Atlanta; I believe it’s USDA zone 8a. We got a house a few years ago and she’s been really into planting native plants in the yard. Over the summer we were in Asheville and visited the North Carolina Arboretum. She was fascinated by the bonsai exhibit they have, and learning that bonsai isn’t limited to a few specific species. We have some American persimmon trees in our backyard, and she’s thinking of digging up a baby tree and potting it.

I’ve been trying to do some research, but have to admit it’s a bit overwhelming. I know nothing about plants in general. From what I can gather, it seems the best time for her to actually pot the tree would be in late summer, and keeping it outside. What I’m not sure is what size/kind of pot would be best for this, and what other supplies (and books) would be helpful.

Can you offer any guidance or recommendations? Thank you!

Collecting a first bonsai with a marginal rare species sets you up for failure. Forget the persimmon. For now it can be used but collecting is a separate set of skills for bonsai. To be successful leave collecting alone until you learn what trees require. You can’t do the bonsai part while ignorant of the horticulture part

Start with a ln already containerized elm or maple in the spring

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Can you offer any guidance or recommendations? Thank you!

Let me answer in two parts - first, the question you asked, and then the answer you didn't ask for
(1) American persimmon is a relatively challenging species to work with for your first species. First, it has relatively large leaves, so to be convincing as a "tree in miniature" you would probably want to work with a larger scale tree. Second, it is a dioecious species (having two sexes) so only females fruit, and they occur much less frequently in the wild than the males. Unless you have seen fruit on your tree, there is a good chance it might be a male, and you might dig it up, care for it, and wonder why it flowers but never fruits. So you might be happier if you started with something a little easier for your first project.
(2) If you think she would really get into bonsai, I would approach it by getting her a simple "project" tree that is easy to care for - like a Chinese elm or a Shimpaku juniper - that she can keep outside all year long, work with, practice on, etc. Then I would consider joining the Atlanta Bonsai Society and accompanying her to a meeting where she will meet a bunch of friendly people who will fall all over themselves offering friendly advice and suggestions local to your area. They will offer beginner workshops as well as have knowledge about the best local nurseries, where to go for supplies, etc. If you are looking for something to put under the tree in addition to, or instead of a tree, you might consider a some nice Wazakura bonsai tools. (Full disclosure, if you buy through a link on this site, we get a referral fee). The first tool anyone should probably buy is a pair of bonsai scissors.

Oh, and whatever you do, plan on getting back up to the NC Arboretum in June of next year for the big American Bonsai Society show.

 

[FrozenTrout]

Thanks everyone! The past couple days have been busy, sorry, but I appreciate the help! I'm going to try and connect her with the ABS affter Christmas, thanks for the tip. We do have both male and female persimmon trees, they already fruit, but hear you about them being not great starters. The tricky thing is she really wants to do a native plant, and I'm not sure what is both well-suited to a beginner as well as being native to the area (Georgia). Does anyone have recommendations that fit both criteria? You mentioned Chinese elms, would a native red/Slippery elm be a good option? I'm still trying to do research on my own, but have limited brain power at the moment, so any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

[rockm]

Thanks everyone! The past couple days have been busy, sorry, but I appreciate the help! I'm going to try and connect her with the ABS affter Christmas, thanks for the tip. We do have both male and female persimmon trees, they already fruit, but hear you about them being not great starters. The tricky thing is she really wants to do a native plant, and I'm not sure what is both well-suited to a beginner as well as being native to the area (Georgia). Does anyone have recommendations that fit both criteria? You mentioned Chinese elms, would a native red/Slippery elm be a good option? I'm still trying to do research on my own, but have limited brain power at the moment, so any help would be greatly appreciated!

In your area Yaupon Holly, Bald Cypress, winged elm (or any kind of native elm) are great candidates. All are forgiving of mistakes and grow vigorously.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

There are more Georgia native trees that would work than I can list here Winged elm would probably be the single easiest/hardiest. Trees to avoid: anything with compound leaves (ash, sumac, locust, etc). Also avoid anything with extra-large leaves (tulip poplar, sycamore, etc).

 

[Kanorin]

Slippery elm, American hornbeam, and Red maple would be another 3 possible natives that take to the bonsai culture without too much fight.

 

[Kievnstavick]

As another set of advice about joining a local club: The older members could probably inform you and your SO about what native trees could work as well as any quirks noticed during their trials.

One thing to note about native species: Often there tends to be a lot of anecdotal growing tips as they are not well documented on how they perform with various techniques (pruning, wiring, leaf management, small containers, etc.).

So as a fair warning, starting with a native species might entail a lot of comparing notes with others growing that specific species as well as a lot of self-learning. This isn't to dissuade you, but just to inform you of the extra challenges you'll have while also learning the art form.

I would recommend going with a "tried-and-true" species to learn on as you will only really need to focus on the bonsai techniques. In the mean-time, you could have some natives growing into larger trees for when your SO if up for the species learning curve.

I would also recommend getting a couple of trees as well to help keep your hands busy.

As for gift ideas: Tools are useful. I would also recommend buying maintenance items as well. Sharpening stones and tool oil (I use camellia oil for my cutters). A gift card to a nursery would work as well to get the first trees that you'll play with. I'd also recommend buying some bonsai books as they can be good information sources for those learning the art form.

Dave DeGroot's Principals of Bonsai Design (2nd Edition) is a great resource for explain the art form and art concepts.

Jonas Dupuich's The Little Book of Bonsai is a great introduction book that talks about the concepts and techniques. His Essential Bonsai Book is an awesome continuation that shows some more independent techniques.

I would also recommend buying commemorative albums of Bonsai Shows as both inspiration and study sources. It could help identify what types of trees and styles speak most for your SO. Kokufu, US Nationals, and the Pacific Bonsai Expo albums to name a couple.

 

[rockm]

I would caution strongly against collecting any trees at this point. It complicates things tremendously and needlessly. I would strongly second getting an established easy to care for first tree (Chinese elm or ficus for the most part). Learn what is required to care for them and keep it alive for a year. Learn the basics THEN think about native species.

 

[Gabler]

I would caution strongly against collecting any trees at this point. It complicates things tremendously and needlessly. I would strongly second getting an established easy to care for first tree (Chinese elm or ficus for the most part). Learn what is required to care for them and keep it alive for a year. Learn the basics THEN think about native species.

Would you consider the various American species of elm to be more challenging than Chinese elm (or zelkova, for that matter)? How would you say that Carolina hornbeam compares to its Korean or European counterparts?

I was never interested in foreign species of trees (and I encountered setbacks as a result), but I'm honestly surprised to hear Chinese elm recommended over the local species. Having worked only with young American elm stock, I am surprised there is a species that's even easier for a beginner to keep healthy.

 

[rockm]

Would you consider the various American species of elm to be more challenging than Chinese elm (or zelkova, for that matter)? How would you say that Carolina hornbeam compares to its Korean or European counterparts?

I was never interested in foreign species of trees (and I encountered setbacks as a result), but I'm honestly surprised to hear Chinese elm recommended over the local species. Having worked only with young American elm stock, I am surprised there is a species that's even easier for a beginner to keep healthy.

Depends on where the elm is coming from. If the native elm is already containerized and small, things might be ok. But the OP is looking to collect. That adds another layer of difficulty. One of which is knowing what you’re digging up. (Pet peeve here - the “I just dug this up. What is it?” question is cart before the horse and an indication of the probably doomed fate of whatever was dug up)

FWIW American hornbeam is initially easy to collect. Once in a container it becomes more difficult. Burned leaves. Winter damaged roots. Included wounds decades old etc

I recommend Chinese elm as it’s readily available already in containerized form with mostly adjusted root masses. You know most of the variables going in and can get a better understanding of what you’re doing wrong

I don’t recommend beginners start out with collecting trees (beyond seedlings Yanking a seedling with a mostly intact root masses up is not collecting). Collection requires some knowledge of the bonsai process and the needs of what you’re digging up. Those needs are purely horticultural and very specific. Watering and soil for instance may not be the same as for a tree established in a pot etc

obviously im not the last word on anything and results vary depending on the individual. I know I killed some pretty nice trees first time (s) out because I misread aftercare. A lot of disappointment and doubt after those not to mention really great looking firewood. Wish I had those chances back.

 

[coachspinks]

Hi everyone! My girlfriend is looking to getting into bonsai trees, and wants some supplies for Christmas. I know it’s a bit late, but want to at least get things ordered, even if they don’t arrive on time.

For some background, we live in Griffin, which is about 45 minutes south of Atlanta; I believe it’s USDA zone 8a. We got a house a few years ago and she’s been really into planting native plants in the yard. Over the summer we were in Asheville and visited the North Carolina Arboretum. She was fascinated by the bonsai exhibit they have, and learning that bonsai isn’t limited to a few specific species. We have some American persimmon trees in our backyard, and she’s thinking of digging up a baby tree and potting it.

I’ve been trying to do some research, but have to admit it’s a bit overwhelming. I know nothing about plants in general. From what I can gather, it seems the best time for her to actually pot the tree would be in late summer, and keeping it outside. What I’m not sure is what size/kind of pot would be best for this, and what other supplies (and books) would be helpful.

Can you offer any guidance or recommendations? Thank you!

Welcome to the site! and to bonsai! You have gotten a lot of great advice here. In your situation, if a native species is important, a winged elm is best. They are tough, ramify well and this species responds well to basic bonsai principles. I love bald cypress but there are some more species specific things that you need to follow. There is a guy on the 99 cent Facebook group that normally has some winged elms to sell at a good price. He will also have some other trees that are probably native to Georgia. They start up again Sunday evening. The best source of material in the Atlanta area is Plant City bonsai. The are in North Georgia and It is close to 2 hours for you. Walk around and talking to the people there is well worth the trip.

I'd really advise against collecting right now. Join the Atlanta Bonsai Society and look up their Facebook page. There should be someone that posts about a collecting trip in February. Try to join them and you will learn a lot and probably come home with a tree.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Would you consider the various American species of elm to be more challenging than Chinese elm (or zelkova, for that matter)? How would you say that Carolina hornbeam compares to its Korean or European counterparts?

It starts to get down to species. Chinese elm has a good reputation not only because of its hardiness, but because of its naturally small leaf size. Winged elm is a US native elm that is also very hardy and also has smaller leaves (though not as small as some Chinese elm cultivars). Some native elms can be quite hardy - but may have quite large leaves. American elm can, for example, have leaves that approach 6", though some of the newer American elm cultivars (like Princeton) will have smaller leaves.

Similarly, Korean hornbeam has smaller leaves than American/Carolina hornbeam.

Red maple is a very pretty maple with leaves on the smaller side. Black and sugar maple are similar, but you have to battle the larger leaves. A good middle ground, if you can find it, is chalk maple, which is almost identical to sugar maple but the leaves are about 1/4 the size.