STYLING ADVICE: New JBP 3 year kyokko graft

[Lolodigogo]

Hi everyone! First post so let me know if there’s anything I could improve on.
This is my 3 year old kyokko graft from Brent at evergreen gardens. I’m fairly new to this and pines, but I have been doing plenty of reading!
My plan for this tree is to bulk up the trunk and have a nice stubby shohin. My problem is styling and where to wire or do the first chop. The plan so far is to report into a 5 gallon pot and feed heavy a year or two, but where to make the first chop. The line in read is my first thought, but there’s some newer small branches comin from the whorl above the first branch. Should I trim all but one of the big branches to use as a sacrifice, or let the whole thing grow wild from the red line up, then give it a chop and just work with the bottom branch? Or should I wire the larger branches and incorporate them into the final tree? Any help or ideas would be great. Thanks everyone.

 

[Gustavo Martins]

Is the trunk as thick as you want it already? If not you must let it grow without cutting anything. You need all the green you can use to fuel growth and speed up trunk thickening. If you cut now, you’ll be halting trunk thickening for the most part.

 

[Adair M]

That’s not shohin material. The internodes are too long.

Plan on a taller tree.

 

[discusmike]

Put it in the ground n let it grow for a few years,you have a very young tree.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Where are you located? It is important to remember cork bark JBP are not as winter hardy as the normal form of JBP. I'm in zone 5b and have lost several cork bark pines over the years. My thought is that these cork bark pines are at best hardy in zone 7 or 8. I now make sure they do not get exposed to temperature below 23F or -5 C.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I agree with Adair, go taller than shohin. Bark is the best feature of 'Kyokko Yatsubusa', a taller trunk, deliberately exposed to view, would take better advantage of the best feature of the cultivar.

Use first branch as sacrifice. Second whorl has one for leader, smaller one for first branch, and one for sacrifice. You need a much larger diameter trunk. Let it grow. Don't worry much about reverse taper at this stage, you can grow the tree out of reverse taper later. Once you have near 2 inches diameter trunk, you can correct reverse taper as you head towards a three inches diameter trunk.

Warning. Be very careful with wiring. Put no pressure or stress across the graft. The graft union will not be fully fused until about 5 to 10 years old. It is very stable at 3 years, but it will never be the same as an ungrafted trunk.

 

[coachspinks]

That’s not shohin material. The internodes are too long.

Plan on a taller tree.

So this is not something that can be corrected in pines? I'm not implying it can be, just thinking about what I should be looking for in material.

 

[Lolodigogo]

Is the trunk as thick as you want it already? If not you must let it grow without cutting anything. You need all the green you can use to fuel growth and speed up trunk thickening. If you cut now, you’ll be halting trunk thickening for the most part.

I plan on giving it another year or 2 before I made any big cuts.

 

[Lolodigogo]

So this is not something that can be corrected in pines? I'm not implying it can be, just thinking about what I should be looking for in material.

I’m in the same boat. I thought I’d be able to let it grow till trunk was the right caliber and then work it down?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I plan on giving it another year or 2 before I made any big cuts.

Good plan, and when you do, here is what I see. Sacrifice branches are circled in yellow, final branches are labeled with a blue F.

If you are good at wiring, you could gently put some movement into them now so they’re not standing straight up and out. Before they have any cork, you can set their shape. After they start to cork, you won’t get much movement without removing all the bark first...or during.

I would not overpot this into a 5-gallon can, but in the spring, move it up to a 2-gallon at the most. One size up, and plenty of pumice in the mix. Corkers’ roots grow very slowly and when overpotted, they can’t take all the moisture out of the soil, and will begin to rot.

In addition to Adair’s comments on the internodes, and Leo’s comments on the bark, I’ll add that the needle length on Koyokko is long, and always will be. Summer candle-cutting on Kyokko is not effective, and has only weakened it in my experience. So, definitely plan on a larger tree. Anything under 16” may not be convincing in scale. Plan on 10 years to see good corky bark.

 

[Lolodigogo]

I agree with Adair, go taller than shohin. Bark is the best feature of 'Kyokko Yatsubusa', a taller trunk, deliberately exposed to view, would take better advantage of the best feature of the cultivar.

Use first branch as sacrifice. Second whorl has one for leader, smaller one for first branch, and one for sacrifice. You need a much larger diameter trunk. Let it grow. Don't worry much about reverse taper at this stage, you can grow the tree out of reverse taper later. Once you have near 2 inches diameter trunk, you can correct reverse taper as you head towards a three inches diameter trunk.

Warning. Be very careful with wiring. Put no pressure or stress across the graft. The graft union will not be fully fused until about 5 to 10 years old. It is very stable at 3 years, but it will never be the same as an ungrafted trunk.

See!! That’s what is so great about this forum! Great insight and advice. I really appreciate it. Now I just need to look up some examples and see which way to take it. How large would you picture this tree after development? Just trying to imagine it. Then when I wore it I’ll be very careful with the graft then bend everything in some direction, and just let it grow unkept for a few years?

 

[Lolodigogo]

Where are you located? It is important to remember cork bark JBP are not as winter hardy as the normal form of JBP. I'm in zone 5b and have lost several cork bark pines over the years. My thought is that these cork bark pines are at best hardy in zone 7 or 8. I now make sure they do not get exposed to temperature below 23F or -5 C.

I’m in 6a butler, pa. However I have them in the fridge set to 35 degrees. Then I’ll start getting them back outside once it warms up a little.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Check tree, to see if it needs water regularly, the refrigerator can dehydrate a tree quickly.

 

[Wilson]

Good plan, and when you do, here is what I see. Sacrifice branches are circled in yellow, final branches are labeled with a blue F.
View attachment 222151
If you are good at wiring, you could gently put some movement into them now so they’re not standing straight up and out. Before they have any cork, you can set their shape. After they start to cork, you won’t get much movement without removing all the bark first...or during.

I would not overpot this into a 5-gallon can, but in the spring, move it up to a 2-gallon at the most. One size up, and plenty of pumice in the mix. Corkers’ roots grow very slowly and when overpotted, they can’t take all the moisture out of the soil, and will begin to rot.

In addition to Adair’s comments on the internodes, and Leo’s comments on the bark, I’ll add that the needle length on Koyokko is long, and always will be. Summer candle-cutting on Kyokko is not effective, and has only weakened it in my experience. So, definitely plan on a larger tree. Anything under 16” may not be convincing in scale. Plan on 10 years to see good corky bark.

@Lolodigogo help like this is GOLD! If you haven't read Brian's blog on developing JBP, and corkers, you need to! Enjoy the journey of learning, and developing your material.

 

[Lolodigogo]

Good plan, and when you do, here is what I see. Sacrifice branches are circled in yellow, final branches are labeled with a blue F.
View attachment 222151
If you are good at wiring, you could gently put some movement into them now so they’re not standing straight up and out. Before they have any cork, you can set their shape. After they start to cork, you won’t get much movement without removing all the bark first...or during.

I would not overpot this into a 5-gallon can, but in the spring, move it up to a 2-gallon at the most. One size up, and plenty of pumice in the mix. Corkers’ roots grow very slowly and when overpotted, they can’t take all the moisture out of the soil, and will begin to rot.

In addition to Adair’s comments on the internodes, and Leo’s comments on the bark, I’ll add that the needle length on Koyokko is long, and always will be. Summer candle-cutting on Kyokko is not effective, and has only weakened it in my experience. So, definitely plan on a larger tree. Anything under 16” may not be convincing in scale. Plan on 10 years to see good corky bark.

Is there anything that could be used instead of pumice. I received a 3 gallon bag of Superfly conifer soil, and I have 3 gallons of pine bark, and 3 gallons of redline akadama coming in the mail this week. I plan on ordering equal amount of lava and turface, and maybe some river sand. Is there any type that’s preferred more than others when it comes to river sand? Or grit? And then probably fertilize with some 20/20/20, but I also have some of those conifer sumocakes someone got me for Christmas that I might try on something smaller. Not sure how well slow release organically work for hulking our young plants.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Is there anything that could be used instead of pumice. I received a 3 gallon bag of Superfly conifer soil, and I have 3 gallons of pine bark, and 3 gallons of redline akadama coming in the mail this week. I plan on ordering equal amount of lava and turface, and maybe some river sand. Is there any type that’s preferred more than others when it comes to river sand? Or grit? And then probably fertilize with some 20/20/20, but I also have some of those conifer sumocakes someone got me for Christmas that I might try on something smaller. Not sure how well slow release organically work for hulking our young plants.

I avoid discussing soil or fertilizer here, but I have published my practices on both, and they’re linked in my signature.

 

[Lolodigogo]

I avoid discussing soil or fertilizer here, but I have published my practices on both, and they’re linked in my signature.

Excellent. I figure everyone’s got there own perfect soil mix. Seems to be all person preference and varies person to person. Appreciate the point in the right direction. I just checked your mix out. That’s was. Good read I found doing a google search before I was part of the forum. Small world.

 

[Lolodigogo]

Good plan, and when you do, here is what I see. Sacrifice branches are circled in yellow, final branches are labeled with a blue F.
View attachment 222151
If you are good at wiring, you could gently put some movement into them now so they’re not standing straight up and out. Before they have any cork, you can set their shape. After they start to cork, you won’t get much movement without removing all the bark first...or during.

I would not overpot this into a 5-gallon can, but in the spring, move it up to a 2-gallon at the most. One size up, and plenty of pumice in the mix. Corkers’ roots grow very slowly and when overpotted, they can’t take all the moisture out of the soil, and will begin to rot.

In addition to Adair’s comments on the internodes, and Leo’s comments on the bark, I’ll add that the needle length on Koyokko is long, and always will be. Summer candle-cutting on Kyokko is not effective, and has only weakened it in my experience. So, definitely plan on a larger tree. Anything under 16” may not be convincing in scale. Plan on 10 years to see good corky bark.

Last night I got all excited and tried to give wiring a shot. Think I got the angle down, but spacing is a bit off. I also wrapped it a little loose just Incase I get a bunch of red flags on here for doing it. I did wrap some branches in raffia just to see what it was about. So here’s the tree now still open for styling tips if I needed this guy up or not. Thanks for the thoughts everyone.