Smoke Tree - 8 years dug from garden

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Smoke tree budding

• KiwiPlantGuy
• Oct 28, 2017

Hi all,

I am having trouble deciding whether I need to trunk chop this Smoke tree again.
As you can see there is a big bulge in the left trunk and I wonder if the bulge is causing reverse taper ( or will do in the near future.
Also, with all the shoots on this trunk, do I let it grow for the season then thin it out etc?
Looking forward to everyone’s opinion on my path forward with this stump.

 

[j evans]

I'm no expert but in my opinion the left needs to be cut below the bulges. Nice start!

 

[defra]

nice one charles!
i got a big smoketree in training as well !

its now kinda like a slingshot and i see a very nice singletrunk with movement and taper in there !

this is what i would do:

 

[defra]

quick virtual

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

quick virtual
View attachment 165400

Hi defra,
Thank you for your thoughts and your computer efforts re virtual. Much easier to understand someone when the RED pen is out lol.
I had been kind of set on the twin trunk style of tree, but your input has me questioning that which is great and challenging.
Charles

 

[defra]

Twin trunk could work too
But the two trunks are equal in thicknes and with this size already i imagine its hard to get the other one to get allot thicker

if if you want do the twintrunk style chop each trunks at 1/3 of the final height you want to have the tree to be

Airlayer one could easily be grown out as twintrunk tough

With the airlayering you will have three tree's

Single trunk
Twin trunk
Raft

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Twin trunk could work too
But the two trunks are equal in thicknes and with this size already i imagine its hard to get the other one to get allot thicker

if if you want do the twintrunk style chop each trunks at 1/3 of the final height you want to have the tree to be

Airlayer one could easily be grown out as twintrunk tough

With the airlayering you will have three tree's

Single trunk
Twin trunk
Raft

Hi and lol,
More airlayers, hmm I need more land as my pre-Bonsai/growing area getting rather full.
I will wait a few more days / weeks for others messages and then I get out either the knife or the pruning saw.
Charles

 

[Anthony]

Though I liked Defra's illustration I wondered if the smoke tree could
do that?

Here is what found on the Internet -
https://i2.wp.com/www.bonsaiisland.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/dreamstime_Cotinus_EB.jpg

My suggestion would be to grow it out for 2 or 3 years and then decide.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[defra]

Though I liked Defra's illustration I wondered if the smoke tree could
do that?

Here is what found on the Internet -
https://i2.wp.com/www.bonsaiisland.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/dreamstime_Cotinus_EB.jpg

My suggestion would be to grow it out for 2 or 3 years and then decide.
Good Day
Anthony

Probably not as fine twigged as my virt but i think when your on top of building the branch structure you can get it well ramified based the one i have

 

[Tieball]

I think you should pass on all the layering, focus on healthy growth for a few more seasons and develop that twin trunk you have envisioned. Later...if you don’t like the twin trunk you can prune the second trunk off and create an attractive feature. Smoke trees look excellent with carved features...they often have many features from broken off branches in their natural environment. Scars on Smoke Trees can be very attractive.

I’d let growth continue. If there is a bulge....hold off decisions until after some added growth. I think you might find the bulge is an excellent carving opportunity which would eliminate the bulge appearance.

Smoke Trees naturally growing wild often have multiple trunks....but one trunk does remain dominant....and you have that started now.

I think you have an excellent tree in development. It just needs some growth toward a mature appearance.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Though I liked Defra's illustration I wondered if the smoke tree could
do that?

Here is what found on the Internet -
https://i2.wp.com/www.bonsaiisland.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/dreamstime_Cotinus_EB.jpg

My suggestion would be to grow it out for 2 or 3 years and then decide.
Good Day
Anthony

Hi Anthony,
Thank you for suggestions. I will have to take all opinions onboard and of course take them with my own thoughts as per this tree and decide soon.
Seems like there’s now a majority for the tree to rest a while.
Long road lol.
Charles

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

I think you should pass on all the layering, focus on healthy growth for a few more seasons and develop that twin trunk you have envisioned. Later...if you don’t like the twin trunk you can prune the second trunk off and create an attractive feature. Smoke trees look excellent with carved features...they often have many features from broken off branches in their natural environment. Scars on Smoke Trees can be very attractive.

I’d let growth continue. If there is a bulge....hold off decisions until after some added growth. I think you might find the bulge is an excellent carving opportunity which would eliminate the bulge appearance.

Smoke Trees naturally growing wild often have multiple trunks....but one trunk does remain dominant....and you have that started now.

I think you have an excellent tree in development. It just needs some growth toward a mature appearance.

Hi Tieball,
Many thanks for your thoughtful comments. I had not considered the carving option.
I know I can search through all threads here and do Google searches for photos for others designs, but could you please give me some ideas to think about regarding the carving. Because what I don’t understand that the trunk would be alive etc.
Looking forward to your comments.
Charles

 

[defra]

Charles,
Here's the big one i have
No carving tough
https://bonsainut.com/threads/cotinus.24952/

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Charles,
Here's the big one i have
No carving tough
https://bonsainut.com/threads/cotinus.24952/

Hi defra,
Thank you so much for sharing your thread. Nice to see all family involved - very cool .
These are really fun trees/bushes and I have a lime green/yellow leaf one and was wondering whether I might as well propagate a green variety also as they seem to be almost bulletproof. I am just wishing I had built my box only 75mm high not the 150 mm this is.
Also I do like your box you built. I was wondering about using ‘plywood’ cut up as it is only 10mm? thick and not as heavy as my first box attempts lol.
Charles

 

[defra]

Hi defra,
Thank you so much for sharing your thread. Nice to see all family involved - very cool .
These are really fun trees/bushes and I have a lime green/yellow leaf one and was wondering whether I might as well propagate a green variety also as they seem to be almost bulletproof. I am just wishing I had built my box only 75mm high not the 150 mm this is.
Also I do like your box you built. I was wondering about using ‘plywood’ cut up as it is only 10mm? thick and not as heavy as my first box attempts lol.
Charles

Thnx !
Yes my wife claimed the cotinus thats why one branch is still long and unchopped
And i would have chopped lower but maybe in time ill convince her lol

The botom of my box is 18mm thick
The sides are treated to be weather proof
it will probably rot away but if it holds 2-3 years its enough since its a decideous tree it will probably regrow the roots real fast

They are tough indeed i realy went hard on the roots but it bounced back just fine
Next year it will probably explode since this year it was repotted

Funny tough Im waiting for it to be in full fall color now and yours breaking buds lol
Cant wait to see the branches it grew

For your next box attempt:
@leatherback has a great building plan on his website !

http://www.growingbonsai.net/built-instructions-for-a-bonsai-growbox/

 

[Anthony]

@KiwiPlantGuy ,

might be simpler on your nerves to place plant back into a colander and
ground grow.

You can take 4 concrete blocks place on ground, and put a layer of coarse
bonsai mix, rest the colander on top, fill in side to just over the plastic
colander, to protect from UV.
Then, if needed a thin mulch of leaves.

Or as I believe the Australian and Americans do, just place on the ground
and let the roots escape at the base. The colander will still air prune
and keep your plant efficient as feeder roots go.

Anyhow, unless a tree / shrub is known for thickening in a pot, not much will
happen in a grow pot.
The over sized pot is for refinement of branches and leaves.

How thick do you envision the trunk to be -------- diameter ?
You can place 6 branches, and grow out problematic bulges etc.

Can you draw or photograph, print and trace to get an idea of what you
hope to achieve?

It will still take 3 to 5 years for the refinement part, by the way.

Think of it this way.

Ground grow for trunk / root and 6 branches.
Oversized container for refinement ------- branchlets

Ignore blooms.
Best of growing.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

@KiwiPlantGuy ,

might be simpler on your nerves to place plant back into a colander and
ground grow.

You can take 4 concrete blocks place on ground, and put a layer of coarse
bonsai mix, rest the colander on top, fill in side to just over the plastic
colander, to protect from UV.
Then, if needed a thin mulch of leaves.

Or as I believe the Australian and Americans do, just place on the ground
and let the roots escape at the base. The colander will still air prune
and keep your plant efficient as feeder roots go.

Anyhow, unless a tree / shrub is known for thickening in a pot, not much will
happen in a grow pot.
The over sized pot is for refinement of branches and leaves.

How thick do you envision the trunk to be -------- diameter ?
You can place 6 branches, and grow out problematic bulges etc.

Can you draw or photograph, print and trace to get an idea of what you
hope to achieve?

It will still take 3 to 5 years for the refinement part, by the way.

Think of it this way.

Ground grow for trunk / root and 6 branches.
Oversized container for refinement ------- branchlets

Ignore blooms.
Best of growing.
Good Day
Anthony

Smoke tree trunk measure

• KiwiPlantGuy
• Oct 30, 2017

Hi Anthony,
I have done a quick photo and with the measuring tape, and with 8 years in the garden I was thinking I would just continue with the plan to Bonsai this and waiting more years doesn’t sound necessary. So the trunk and nebari isn’t the biggest the world has ever seen, and I hear your kind advice re ground vs box.
As a learner bonsai grower I look forward to sharing photos and asking for advice etc.
I am no artist but my ‘minds eye’ has a few designs in there .

Maybe a twin trunk broom lol.
Charles

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Not enough roots to get it started. All the budding was latent growth from pre-Spring energy.
ITS DEAD. bummer, moving on

 

[defra]

That sucks man realy sad
it was one of the few larger smoketree's ive seen around

But strange tough the one i did didnt have much roots left too tbh and that one did great like nothing ever happened
Mine is in very different soil tough fully inorganic 100% DE , are you sure the problem isnt caused by staying wet to long?
If its dead Examine the roots and look for things that you can learn from for future attempts!

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

That sucks man realy sad
it was one of the few larger smoketree's ive seen around

But strange tough the one i did didnt have much roots left too tbh and that one did great like nothing ever happened
Mine is in very different soil tough fully inorganic 100% DE , are you sure the problem isnt caused by staying wet to long?
If its dead Examine the roots and look for things that you can learn from for future attempts!

Hi defra,
Thank you for your comments. I think you are correct that my box was not well drained enough and media not free draining enough for the lack of roots. Also I made a mistake of cutting roots back after digging instead of waiting a year or 2 to chop ( as the roots were flat enoughanyway) Impatient one, tree zero.
Yep learned something and will try an airlayer of another one to get my smoke tree underway again.
Charles