small JBP with some movement

[catfish chapstick]

I picked up this tree in 2022 and slip potted it into a large container. It had some lower trunk movement that initially attracted me and since it was my first JBP I really didn't feel comfortable dropping a lot of money (in the even that I killed it). I thought thought this would be a good start to get to know the species, possibly in preparation for an older, more costly tree in the future.

Still have a long way to go. I will probably continue to chase back the foliage and compress the overall image.

Am I on the right path?

Here is a photo then and now.

 

[Dav4]

Pretty decent bones here, so not bad . If this were mine, I'd be losing that one branch on the right so that the entire tree is moving to the left.

 

[WinstonWolfe]

Pretty decent bones here, so not bad . If this were mine, I'd be losing that one branch on the right so that the entire tree is moving to the left.

I disagree. I think in the long term, having that in place is gonna give both options, and balance.
It's the guy wires that I can't stop staring at

 

[Dav4]

I disagree. I think in the long term, having that in place is gonna give both options, and balance.
It's the guy wires that I can't stop staring at

The problem with that branch is that it's as thick as the trunk section below it, it lacks much movement and taper, and it's bare of foliage until it makes a 90 degree turn straight down. In my opinion, other than using it as a sacrifice branch to thicken the trunk, it's always going to stand out, and not in a good way.

 

[catfish chapstick]

The problem with that branch is that it's as thick as the trunk section below it, it lacks much movement and taper, and it's bare of foliage until it makes a 90 degree turn straight down. In my opinion, other than using it as a sacrifice branch to thicken the trunk, it's always going to stand out, and not in a good way.

I totally agree about the branch being too thick and needing to be removed. I removed an even thicker branch from roughly the same location a couple years ago so was just waiting. I wired it way down to keep it out of the way and just make the most of it for now

I disagree. I think in the long term, having that in place is gonna give both options, and balance.
It's the guy wires that I can't stop staring at

I don't take a lot of care making the wire attractive but I make sure to never get wire scars ever

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Definitely an improvement!

The nebari is interesting.
The trunk line is good... though lacking in taper.
Hard to tell in a 2D photo, but it feels like I am looking at the back of the tree, with the upper trunk projecting backwards from the jin, and the apex leaning to the back (as currently photoed). Make sure your design comes forward towards the viewer.

There are times when guy wires work, but you have to be careful how you use them and where you attach them, because all of their strength hits the tree at one point. Instead of getting an interesting branch with a lot of random movement (if you use wire), with guy wires it is easy to get a "bow" in your branch. Make sure you use your guy wires in combination with wire... if you use them at all. Because you are attaching your guy wires to the end of your branches, the branches are bending down like a bow, instead of weeping down naturally and coming up at the ends. For example:





The branch that you currently have as a back branch is suffering from the same problem - being pulled down like a bow instead of weeping down and coming up at the end.

Easy stuff to fix!

Also, the branches are mostly too thick right now, but if you let the apex grow out for a season or two while you constrain growth on your branches, the upper trunk will thicken and the branches will be in better proportion to the trunk.

 

[catfish chapstick]

Definitely an improvement!

The nebari is interesting.
The trunk line is good... though lacking in taper.
Hard to tell in a 2D photo, but it feels like I am looking at the back of the tree, with the upper trunk projecting backwards from the jin, and the apex leaning to the back (as currently photoed). Make sure your design comes forward towards the viewer.

There are times when guy wires work, but you have to be careful how you use them and where you attach them, because all of their strength hits the tree at one point. Instead of getting an interesting branch with a lot of random movement (if you use wire), with guy wires it is easy to get a "bow" in your branch. Make sure you use your guy wires in combination with wire... if you use them at all. Because you are attaching your guy wires to the end of your branches, the branches are bending down like a bow, instead of weeping down naturally and coming up at the ends. For example:

View attachment 611099

View attachment 611100

The branch that you currently have as a back branch is suffering from the same problem - being pulled down like a bow instead of weeping down and coming up at the end.

Easy stuff to fix!

Also, the branches are mostly too thick right now, but if you let the apex grow out for a season or two while you constrain growth on your branches, the upper trunk will thicken and the branches will be in better proportion to the trunk.

I like everything you say. When I got the tree I had in mind to slowly chop it down into a trunk line for literati. I'm not sure how much foliage I can remove at one time, especially since being de-candled. I'd love to remove 75% or more of the top and the roots

I'm thinking all the thick branches need to go completely. No jin. I only bow the branches so they don't stick straight out, for now

Should I cut the branches off before spring? or should I let the tree grow and gain vigor? I don't intend to baby it. I have killed conifers before by going too hard

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Should I cut the branches off before spring? or should I let the tree grow and gain vigor? I don't intend to baby it. I have killed conifers before by going too hard

I wouldn't. In fact, I kinda like this tree the way it is right now. I think with a little refinement it could look interesting. The main thing is to keep it strong, and in this case, strength means increasing your foliage mass. You are correct with conifers you do not want to remove too much foliage at any one time or the tree can universally weaken - particularly if you have also recently done root work. Since you don't have much experience with black pines I would play around with this one and practice your refinement techiques and who knows? In a couple of years you may have a tree that looks very different and leads you in a different design direction.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Dandy tree indeed.

 

[catfish chapstick]

I wouldn't. In fact, I kinda like this tree the way it is right now. I think with a little refinement it could look interesting. The main thing is to keep it strong, and in this case, strength means increasing your foliage mass. You are correct with conifers you do not want to remove too much foliage at any one time or the tree can universally weaken - particularly if you have also recently done root work. Since you don't have much experience with black pines I would play around with this one and practice your refinement techiques and who knows? In a couple of years you may have a tree that looks very different and leads you in a different design direction.

idk if you noticed but the tree has "knuckles" from whorls or branches being left for too long. I'm not too bothered by it. I think it would be nice to eventually take more of a lingnan penjing approach to the design.

 

[catfish chapstick]

I removed the wire and here are a couple different angles. I'd love to cut off all these primary branches but not sure if it would even be worth it. something to think about all winter

 

[RoadManDenDron]

I'd love to cut off all these primary branches

What are you hoping to achieve in doing so?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I'd love to cut off all these primary branches but not sure if it would even be worth it. something to think about all winter

I get it - they are too thick for the trunk. But black pines are not Chinese elms You have to move much more slowly and make sure you are transferring the strength of one part of the tree to another part of the tree. If you move too quickly and remove too much, the tree can crash. A healthy robust black pine with branches that are too thick is still better looking than a weak and spindly black pine Work on developing your ramification and pushing the foliage back closer to the trunk. Step by step... remove outer needle mass while you are developing inner need mass. As you shorten the branches that are too thick you can create jins or deadwood that add interest to the tree.

Even now the tree is suffering from not enough ramification. When I say "suffering" there are not enough nodes for it to spread its energy, so each shoot is really strong, it extends really far, the needles are long, etc. Now imagine the same tree with 8x as many buds (in three years). The shoots will be short, the needles will be short, and you will have short, refined branches. At that point you can say "I'm going to wack off this branch" or even - "I'm going to reduce the entire tree to this one long branch" and you will be able to do so because you have tons of growth to work with.

(When I say 8x as many shoots think - decandle next year, cut back to 2 buds per shoot. Decandle the next year, cut back to 2 buds per shoot... now you have 4x as many shoots. By the third year you will have 8x)

 

[Takahiro83]

Cool. Getting there

 

[catfish chapstick]

What are you hoping to achieve in doing so?

this is what I'm still deciding. I don't love when the branch is the same thickness as the trunk it emerges from

 

[catfish chapstick]

I get it - they are too thick for the trunk. But black pines are not Chinese elms You have to move much more slowly and make sure you are transferring the strength of one part of the tree to another part of the tree. If you move too quickly and remove too much, the tree can crash. A healthy robust black pine with branches that are too thick is still better looking than a weak and spindly black pine Work on developing your ramification and pushing the foliage back closer to the trunk. Step by step... remove outer needle mass while you are developing inner need mass. As you shorten the branches that are too thick you can create jins or deadwood that add interest to the tree.

Even now the tree is suffering from not enough ramification. When I say "suffering" there are not enough nodes for it to spread its energy, so each shoot is really strong, it extends really far, the needles are long, etc. Now imagine the same tree with 8x as many buds (in three years). The shoots will be short, the needles will be short, and you will have short, refined branches. At that point you can say "I'm going to wack off this branch" or even - "I'm going to reduce the entire tree to this one long branch" and you will be able to do so because you have tons of growth to work with.

(When I say 8x as many shoots think - decandle next year, cut back to 2 buds per shoot. Decandle the next year, cut back to 2 buds per shoot... now you have 4x as many shoots. By the third year you will have 8x)

I will go slow and build ramification before making more cuts. Maybe a healthy robust black pine with branches that are too thick is just what I need I shouldn't mind it not fitting the bonsai mold

 

[Dav4]

Having a sacrifice branch in the upper part of the canopy will thicken the trunk below it and applying candle cutting and needle thinning when appropriate to your keeper branches- which will drastically slow down the branch thickening- would be an option to consider.