Shaina Japanese Maple, layering question

[penumbra]

I know this approaches blasphemy for many of you, but I collect plants that will never be bonsai, and I am ok with that.
I have about 30 or so different Acer palmatum and I just picked this one up yesterday. It is a Shaina maple that was introduced by Monrovia and originally came from a witches broom. There was a few of them at the nursery and they all had grafts that are very noticeable, partially because they are still small plants. I am familiar with the mechanics of layering though I have not done it in several years. If I use appropriate techniques to layer this above the graft, and if the graft is not successful, am I at risk of losing the plant? I ask this because I have only had experience with layering branches where your greatest loss would be that branch. I have never tried layering a tree off its graft.
Any thoughts on this? I am considering going back to buy another if the still have one.
Thank you

 

[just.wing.it]

I think you would have to determine why the layer failed....
If the cambium bridges, then the top may live, but if not, then you will be left with the rootstock....
......if I'm understanding you correctly.

Why not just layer a single branch to be safe?

 

[MACH5]

My thoughts is that if the air layer fails there is always a chance you may loose the plant altogether. However, in this case due to the age of the plant, I think most likely it will be fine.

Good luck and hope it works out. I have no experience air layering this cultivar so cannot advise you. Be mindful that some "fancy" cultivars are quite difficult to layer.

 

[BrianBay9]

You could always air layer a branch or two first, then go for the trunk. That way if the trunk layer failed you'd still have some of this variety.

 

[penumbra]

Thank you everyone for your suggestions. We are on the same page. I just left the nursery with the last two specimens. The one I showed will remain untouched not that I have better candidates for experimenting on.

 

[0soyoung]

If you are patient, grafted a.p. will often 'spontaneously' ground layer if the union is underground - like maybe split a pot, close it around the union and fill it with your favorite rooting medium or bonsai substrate. Add a year or two, maybe three, of it growing and thickening up and voila! You don't simply want to bury/plant the tree deeper because it makes getting air (oxygen) to the roots more difficult and can, of course, kill the tree.

This also sometimes works with a varietal node, not just a graft union.

At any rate, it is a route that may get you there without risk of loosing the entire tree.

 

[penumbra]

If you are patient, grafted a.p. will often 'spontaneously' ground layer if the union is underground

Thank you. That is why I have three of them now. One is going to get planted deep in a very well draining mix hoping it will layer. One is going to get an air layer and cuttings this summer. One is going to grow unchecked in a most unbonsailike manner.
Thank you to everyone. I will update as time goes by.

 

[Shibui]

I have not yet been able to get Shaina to produce roots. I will watch with interest to see if you can do it.
Layering at or just below the graft site can be successful because the root stock can root relatively easy so as long as there is some stock in the layering area it should be OK. The graft right in among the roots is usually not noticeable.
Layering just above the graft would endanger the grafted section if it fails to root. Layering a bit higher so there are a few nodes left above the graft would allow it to shoot again after the layer is removed or fails.

 

[Canada Bonsai]

@penumbra there is a lot of valuable discussion about shaina at the link below, with interesting conversation about shaina 'overgrowing' its graft (see esp. post #12) which, i think, might be especially relevant to your specimen.

Dieback and related issues concerning JM witch's brooms

witches brooms do experience die back and sudden death. I don't think anyone knows why - perhaps it's their undersized root ball/mass. I have a large...

forums.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca

 

[penumbra]

Thanks Canada Bonsai. That is really great info. Lots learned there.

 

[Forsoothe!]

I have a Shaina that I put in the landscape 10 years ago because it had a graft mid-way between the ground and the first branch. I bought it when I was a novice. It loses a branch here or there every year.

 

[penumbra]

Sounds like the best course is to bury the graft.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Yes, if you bought one with a low enough graft. I didn't.

 

[SilverShoe99]

I've got one of these too, with a similarly ugly graft. I took some cuttings back in January, stuck 'em in some perlite/lava/DE and sealed them up in a jury-rigged waterbottle/greenhouse situation. I think I took 7 or 8, and 3 look like they're pushing some leaves - but they look pretty weak. Not sure they'll survive. I'll take some pics in a bit and post them here.

I've been planning to try to layer the tree this year as well. My (limited) understanding of air layering is that if I do so above the first branch of the cultivar, even if the layer fails the tree should survive.

 

[penumbra]

I've got one of these too

I hope you have read the link provided by Canada Bonsai. It is very informative.

 

[b3bowen]

I layered a bunch of cultivars( >10 types) off their root stock last year. Always did it right above the bottom branch in case of failure. Saw a post on here of someone who said they successfully layered shaina. reached out to see how it was doing and never heard back. Unfortunately this was the only non dissectum that formed absolutely no roots after an entire growing season. Not to discourage you, but thought i would share my experience.