Seiju Elm Pruning Questions

[SandSquid]

Hello all -

I've searched both this forum and elsewhere online and can't seem to find a clear answer, so I'm hoping by posting the question myself that you wise folks will jump in.

I have a Seiju elm I picked up a couple months ago as a pre-bonsai from a nursery that has a "bonsai" department. They have some pretty cool stuff, and I found a particular Seiju I liked. I'll post a couple pics as soon as I get home. But, really, I'm not sure pics are necessary (at least at this point).

The first question is, when is a good time to do a significant pruning on a Seiju? I'm not talking chopping the trunk; I'm talking about pruning branches back to 1-2 leaf pairs while removing unwanted branches altogether. I really need to shrink the overall stature of the tree, it's wildly out of control and I need to bring it into something resembling the obligatory conical shape while also tightening things up. I read articles that say late winter, late fall, late spring... but really they're mostly talking about regular Chinese elms, not the Seiju.

The second question is, would it be outlandish to create shari as a way of helping to remove reverse taper in some areas? It's not that bad, but it's bad enough.

Lastly, the tree has three very thick roots that may look cool at first glance, but don't really do anything to enhance the nebari. They make it look kind of like a badly drawn chicken foot (for lack of better imagery). I read on another thread here that removing those roots at the trunk will encourage new, smaller roots to form, replacing the ultra-thick single root that is there. I may have some of the details wrong, but is there anything to that? I thought I read that doing it after the leaves have fallen is the best time as the tree is able to focus on root growth instead of sending its energy upward. I could be way off base.

Thanks again!

 

[Cruiser]

The first question is, when is a good time to do a significant pruning on a Seiju? I'm not talking chopping the trunk; I'm talking about pruning branches back to 1-2 leaf pairs while removing unwanted branches altogether.

I pruned mine in June, once leaves were hardened off. It was a good time. Growth was already under way. It provided time to start healing the wounds before dormancy.

Other times you mentioned are not wrong. You’d probably be able to see branch structure better in winter-spring. Fall pruning may give the tree enough time to set buds for next year, without leafing out too late this year.
However, with less grow season to heal, the chance for dieback may increase.

I need to bring it into something resembling the obligatory conical shape

Not necessarily. Many elms naturally develop vase or bouquet shaped profiles. But if you desire that form that’s cool too.

The second question is, would it be outlandish to create shari as a way of helping to remove reverse taper in some areas? It's not that bad, but it's bad enough.

A preserved-white Shari may look strange on an elm. Perhaps carve it out a bit and let it turn into a hollow.

Lastly, the tree has three very thick roots that may look cool at first glance, but don't really do anything to enhance the nebari. They make it look kind of like a badly drawn chicken foot (for lack of better imagery). I read on another thread here that removing those roots at the trunk will encourage new, smaller roots to form, replacing the ultra-thick single root that is there. I may have some of the details wrong, but is there anything to that? I thought I read that doing it after the leaves have fallen is the best time as the tree is able to focus on root growth instead of sending its energy upward. I could be way off base.

I pruned thick roots on my seiju when it was repotted in the spring. The response was good.

Without any pictures to go off, I’d suggest letting the tree be wild and continue to grow this season. Let it continue to get stronger. Then, next spring repot. Take care of roots then. If response is favorable, then prune in summer.

You could also just leave the tree in its pot next spring and only prune instead. That way the growth response would likely be quicker since the roots are already good to go.

As usual, there’s multiple ways to go about things…

 

[SandSquid]

I pruned mine in June, once leaves were hardened off. It was a good time. Growth was already under way. It provided time to start healing the wounds before dormancy.

Other times you mentioned are not wrong. You’d probably be able to see branch structure better in winter-spring. Fall pruning may give the tree enough time to set buds for next year, without leafing out too late this year.
However, with less grow season to heal, the chance for dieback may increase.

Not necessarily. Many elms naturally develop vase or bouquet shaped profiles. But if you desire that form that’s cool too.

A preserved-white Shari may look strange on an elm. Perhaps carve it out a bit and let it turn into a hollow.

I pruned thick roots on my seiju when it was repotted in the spring. The response was good.

Without any pictures to go off, I’d suggest letting the tree be wild and continue to grow this season. Let it continue to get stronger. Then, next spring repot. Take care of roots then. If response is favorable, then prune in summer.

You could also just leave the tree in its pot next spring and only prune instead. That way the growth response would likely be quicker since the roots are already good to go.

As usual, there’s multiple ways to go about things…

replying to the bold statements above...

Are you referring to uro? I've seen a couple articles that mention this while looking for jin and shari info, I'll look into it... my only fear (I say "only," but come on, I have many when it comes to bonsai) is that I do it wrong and kill the tree... but, I guess that's what experimentation is all about. I'll upload a pic when I get home from work and point out the area I'm concerned with. But, this is a great suggestion that I hadn't thought of. Would uro be done in the spring as well? I watched a video from Ryan at Bonsai Murai on deciduous activities during the fall, and he did all kinds of deadwood creation on his tree. So, I'm guessing it's okay to do it in the fall? He talks over my head most of the time, so I tend to miss a bunch of info. Again, not a ton of info on Seiju - at least not as much as every other tree out there.

I didn't have any intention of repotting... though I guess removing the tree, pruning roots, and putting back into the same pot does constitute "repotting," so I guess I really DID have intentions to repot. But, I can see where you going with this, and I think this could be my chosen route. I'd rather get the tree shaped and wired and then worry about refining roots later after the trunk thickens just a bit more. Not messing with the roots this next spring and just letting it grow could mean that structure work coming up this late autumn/early winter should be okay... as long as I wait for it to go dormant. If I'm tracking.

 

[BobbyLane]

replying to the bold statements above...

Are you referring to uro? I've seen a couple articles that mention this while looking for jin and shari info, I'll look into it... my only fear (I say "only," but come on, I have many when it comes to bonsai) is that I do it wrong and kill the tree... but, I guess that's what experimentation is all about. I'll upload a pic when I get home from work and point out the area I'm concerned with. But, this is a great suggestion that I hadn't thought of. Would uro be done in the spring as well? I watched a video from Ryan at Bonsai Murai on deciduous activities during the fall, and he did all kinds of deadwood creation on his tree. So, I'm guessing it's okay to do it in the fall? He talks over my head most of the time, so I tend to miss a bunch of info. Again, not a ton of info on Seiju - at least not as much as every other tree out there.

I didn't have any intention of repotting... though I guess removing the tree, pruning roots, and putting back into the same pot does constitute "repotting," so I guess I really DID have intentions to repot. But, I can see where you going with this, and I think this could be my chosen route. I'd rather get the tree shaped and wired and then worry about refining roots later after the trunk thickens just a bit more. Not messing with the roots this next spring and just letting it grow could mean that structure work coming up this late autumn/early winter should be okay... as long as I wait for it to go dormant. If I'm tracking.

If you saw Ryan do something, you dont really need to get ten other opinions on it, the dude knows his onions.
You'll get more info on the species if you just treat it as 'Elm' although ive not seen many seiju with deadwood features. Uros/hollows yes.

“Killing trees is the tuition you pay for learning bonsai.” – John Naka
Without risk, there is no bonsai.
No one enjoys making mistakes, but they are the price of knowledge.

 

[Cruiser]

Are you referring to uro? I've seen a couple articles that mention this while looking for jin and shari info, I'll look into it... my only fear (I say "only," but come on, I have many when it comes to bonsai) is that I do it wrong and kill the tree... but, I guess that's what experimentation is all about. I'll upload a pic when I get home from work and point out the area I'm concerned with. But, this is a great suggestion that I hadn't thought of. Would uro be done in the spring as well? I watched a video from Ryan at Bonsai Murai on deciduous activities during the fall, and he did all kinds of deadwood creation on his tree. So, I'm guessing it's okay to do it in the fall? He talks over my head most of the time, so I tend to miss a bunch of info. Again, not a ton of info on Seiju - at least not as much as every other tree out there.

I mean something like this. Not a hole, but a stretch of the trunk that died and decayed and created a hollow.


Sometimes the tree is able to rollover the wound and nearly close it. So it could become an evolving feature.


Not sure of the best timing.
In our wet-overcast-mild winter climate it may be riskier for your tree to create it in fall/winter. The tree may not rapidly address the issue. Fungus is provided greater opportunity to spread.
On the other hand, this is often when features like this get created in nature around here.( winter storms, snow damage) . The trees can’t respond as fast so the damage/rot has more time to spread creating larger cavities.

 

[SandSquid]

If you saw Ryan do something, you dont really need to get ten other opinions on it, the dude knows his onions.
You'll get more info on the species if you just treat it as 'Elm' although ive not seen many seiju with deadwood features. Uros/hollows yes.

“Killing trees is the tuition you pay for learning bonsai.” – John Naka
Without risk, there is no bonsai.
No one enjoys making mistakes, but they are the price of knowledge.

I get it, but I like opinions. Different perspectives. For example, he was creating huge shari on a deciduous tree, but some other bonsai learning sources, as well as tradition, state that deciduous trees don't really shari in the wild, they just rot and die. Conifers are the kings of shari. So, yeah, just seeking different viewpoints. Also, had I been asking about the same species he was using in his video, I probably wouldn't have asked.

 

[SandSquid]

I mean something like this. Not a hole, but a stretch of the trunk that died and decayed and created a hollow.
View attachment 510432

Sometimes the tree is able to rollover the wound and nearly close it. So it could become an evolving feature.
View attachment 510433

Not sure of the best timing.
In our wet-overcast-mild winter climate it may be riskier for your tree to create it in fall/winter. The tree may not rapidly address the issue. Fungus is provided greater opportunity to spread.
On the other hand, this is often when features like this get created in nature around here.( winter storms, snow damage) . The trees can’t respond as fast so the damage/rot has more time to spread creating larger cavities.

I really appreciate this example. I just realized you're in Thurston County, so you get what my concerns are. I need to look up and study the how-to on this type of thing. I'm pretty set on doing something to help remove the slight reverse taper, I just want to do it right. But, you're right, it would be an evolving feature that would be cool to watch!

 

[BobbyLane]

I get it, but I like opinions. Different perspectives. For example, he was creating huge shari on a deciduous tree, but some other bonsai learning sources, as well as tradition, state that deciduous trees don't really shari in the wild, they just rot and die. Conifers are the kings of shari. So, yeah, just seeking different viewpoints. Also, had I been asking about the same species he was using in his video, I probably wouldn't have asked.

A lot of Ryan's work is based on how trees look in the wild. Deciduous trees can live with hollow trunks for 100s of years. Have you never come across any hollow deciduous trees where you're from, like in parks, forests etc or seen any images online. Or seen any images of old bonsai with hollow trunks, I'm scratching my head.
Can we see a pic of your tree?

 

[BobbyLane]

 

[SandSquid]

A lot of Ryan's work is based on how trees look in the wild. Deciduous trees can live with hollow trunks for 100s of years. Have you never come across any hollow deciduous trees where you're from, like in parks, forests etc or seen any images online. Or seen any images of old bonsai with hollow trunks, I'm scratching my head.
Can we see a pic of your tree?

There are more perspectives that are valid beyond Ryan's.

My initial question was concerning shari, not uro. Those are two distinct approaches with two distinct methods reflecting two distinct elements found in the wild. What your remark is referring to is uro, which, if you read my responses to the thread above this one, I acknowledge that I hadn't thought about when it comes to BONSAI. That, in no way whatsoever, even closely eludes to the ridiculous notion that a 48 year old man has never seen a hole in a tree.

The scratching of one's head could be caused by any number of things, including hyperkeratosis, allergic reaction, and lice.

 

[SandSquid]

Much, appreciated, I'll give it a watch!

 

[BobbyLane]

It's not outlandish to have deadwood on a deciduous tree, if you've seen them in the wild, you wouldn't think its outlandish. Maybe it is to folk who believe that trunks should be scarless. But if you like deadwood, holes etc why do you need to here thoughts of people who oppose to it. Why not just do it.

 

[BobbyLane]

There is a little 'shari' at the base of this oak tree, what usually happens overtime, is the dead heartwood rots and the tree becomes hollow, like in the second picture.
Whether you like it or not, if you create a shari, a hollow or uro is the next stage of the natural process, depending on how long the deadwood lasts. I'm still scratching my head

 

[SandSquid]

It's not outlandish to have deadwood on a deciduous tree, if you've seen them in the wild, you wouldn't think its outlandish. Maybe it is to folk who believe that trunks should be scarless. But if you like deadwood, holes etc why do you need to here thoughts of people who oppose to it. Why not just do it.

I never said it was outlandish to have deadwood on deciduous trees in the wild, just pointed out two schools of thought on it from the BONSAI side of things. You're putting words in my mouth.

Also, hearing people's oppositions to things I like is a good way to learn, to expand my worldview, even on things as small as bonsai. I may like deadwood on trees, but there may be something that could change my mind - like the health of tree, or the overall appreciation for design. It happens to the best of us on any number of topics.

I have admitted that I have apprehension to doing things to the tree that are risky to the point of potential death of the tree. I'm new at this, so why not ask? I wanted to know what people were doing with the question I had in my mind, so I watched many bonsai artists and teachers, including Ryan. I want to know more. That's why.

I'm going to do something, but it's important to understand what that something should be so that both myself and the tree can benefit.

It's really not that difficult to understand. But I sincerely appreciate the discourse.

 

[SandSquid]

There is a little 'shari' at the base of this oak tree, what usually happens overtime, is the dead heartwood rots and the tree becomes hollow, like in the second picture.
Whether you like it or not, if you create a shari, a hollow or uro is the next stage of the natural process, depending on how long the deadwood lasts. I'm still scratching my head

You're scratching your head because you're not wanting to understand the reasons I'm asking even though I've explained it numerous times. But thanks for the pics.

 

[BobbyLane]

'The second question is, would it be outlandish to create shari as a way of helping to remove reverse taper in some areas? It's not that bad, but it's bad enough.'
No. But it depends who you speak to or listen to.

 

[SandSquid]

Exactly. Because I was asking about a bonsai tree, not a tree in the park.

And the answer you just gave is perfect!

 

[SandSquid]

'The second question is, would it be outlandish to create shari as a way of helping to remove reverse taper in some areas? It's not that bad, but it's bad enough.'
No. But it depends who you speak to or listen to.

Now that we’re friends again, here’s the tree in question

 

[Mike Westervelt]

I would be reluctant to do major pruning or shari work this time of year, elms are prone to dieback as Cruiser mentioned
especially during our cool wet winters.

Ryan likely would give a recently worked tree extra protection, like a greenhouse.

Best time for heavy cuts is early spring, light pruning, (think scissors not concave cutters or saws} is okay anytime.

 

[BobbyLane]

So i'd probably reduce the two trunks, like what I did with this elm https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/oak-style-chinese-elm.26816/
I'd let it grow all next season and chop in summer, around mid June
The trunks are currently too long and look out of proportion. Start looking at good bonsai trees and you'll understand better when the proportions are ideal.