Seedling Identification?

SilentMouse

Sapling
Messages
33
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19
Location
Eaton County, Michigan
USDA Zone
5b
So, I've spent the better part of a week puzzling over this. Looking up every leaf identification guide I can find, both pictures and written descriptions. After all of that, I am still unsure as to what it could be. These little seedling came up in my pots and I saved two of them, and put them in my tray of other seedlings. Can anyone help me out with an idea for what tree/shrub species it could be? It certainly isn't one I can easily identify.

20200819_125208.jpg

From what I've looked at, it looks like it could be a red alder? That is the closest I've been able to find. It certainly isn't either of the maples I have around my home, or the black poplar in my yard. So I am at a loss. Any thoughts would be really helpful.
 
It could totally be a black poplar.
Juvenile leaves are often a different shape.

That is VERY true, and defiantly slipped my mind! Could be these are just their "baby leaves" so to speak and maybe next year they will look identical to the poplar.

Perhaps I'll need to give it till they comes out into leaf next spring? Don't know much about poplars as bonsai...though I imagine they make subpar maternal just because the leaves get fairly large. Not gigantic, but not small by any stretch.
 
Poplars are not well regarded as a “good” species.

I have a feeling that the separation between “good” and BAD species is more reliant on tradition and laziness than anything else. Give em a shot for a few years, and if the leaves won’t shrink display em in the winter.
 
Poplars are not well regarded as a “good” species.

I have a feeling that the separation between “good” and BAD species is more reliant on tradition and laziness than anything else. Give em a shot for a few years, and if the leaves won’t shrink display em in the winter.

Ahh, okay. That is a good idea, and I'll probably do that if they grow well :).
 
So, I've spent the better part of a week puzzling over this. Looking up every leaf identification guide I can find, both pictures and written descriptions. After all of that, I am still unsure as to what it could be. These little seedling came up in my pots and I saved two of them, and put them in my tray of other seedlings. Can anyone help me out with an idea for what tree/shrub species it could be? It certainly isn't one I can easily identify.

View attachment 323855

From what I've looked at, it looks like it could be a red alder? That is the closest I've been able to find. It certainly isn't either of the maples I have around my home, or the black poplar in my yard. So I am at a loss. Any thoughts would be really helpful.
Absolutely a poplar of some kind due to flat petiole.

After googling what kinds of poplars live in Michigan, I think it's perhaps a Populus x canadensis (Carolina poplar). The seedlings seem to match the leaf edges and stem coloration..
 
Poplars are not well regarded as a “good” species.

I have a feeling that the separation between “good” and BAD species is more reliant on tradition and laziness than anything else. Give em a shot for a few years, and if the leaves won’t shrink display em in the winter.

I "gotta" call you out on this one. The difference between "good" and "bad" species for bonsai is not because "tradition" says they are bad. Quite often seasoned, experienced bonsai hobbyists and pro practitioners have actually worked with that species or similar species with similar characteristics and have learned through years of hard work and failure to create a pleasing image that certain species are not good candidates for bonsai. It is NOT out of laziness that myself and other more experienced bonsai people make these "pronouncements". These judgements are out of actual, hard earned experience. If you struggle a decade or so with a cottonwood, you can, accurately extrapolate to having similar problems with a popular or similar growth habit species. You don't have to grow all the "Bad For Bonsai" species to recognize where one will have problems.

Be my guest, waste your time, go ahead and try to create something with a species deemed "bad" for bonsai. You really want a challenge, try to make something attractive while in flower out of a Catalpa. Or try a tulip poplar, Liriodendron tulipifera, that another good one to frustrate you. Eastern white pine, Pinus strobus, is another that is uniquely frustrating to work with. The small handful of good EWP bonsa prove the point, that the majority are really difficult to work with. There are real reasons, from hard learned experience that "we" try to steer new to the hobby to the species that submit more easily to bonsai culture techniques.

@SilentMouse - you are in Michigan, I collect trees from my family farm near South Haven Michigan. There are some great native Michigan species to use for bonsai that will work more easily than poplars. Though poplars are not "the worst". And it is true, a winter view of a poplar with its white bark is pleasing. But while you are out and about in Michigan, look for hornbeam, Carpinus caroliniana, also Acer rubrum, red maple, the local native gooseberries, Ribes, make interesting flowering and fruiting bonsai. The MI native hawthorns, Crataegus, are great for bonsai. The eastern hemlock, Tsuga canadensis, is a nice, very winter hardy MI native. And if you get to central "sand counties" north of Grand Rapids, there is the jack pine, Pinus banksiana, that is quite good for bonsai, as is American larch, Larix laricina. The wild plum, Prunus americana, is also good for bonsai. There are many, many species that are good, and while it is not my intent to tell you what you can grow and what you can't, in an effort to save you time and minimize frustration, I would steer clear of species with less than ideal reputations.

Oh, and any elm, native or introduced invasive, that grows well outdoors in Michigan will make decent bonsai. Even the American elm, with its large leaves, it turns out the leaves reduce nicely in bonsai cultivation.
 
I "gotta" call you out on this one. The difference between "good" and "bad" species for bonsai is not because "tradition" says they are bad. Quite often seasoned, experienced bonsai hobbyists and pro practitioners have actually worked with that species or similar species with similar characteristics and have learned through years of hard work and failure to create a pleasing image that certain species are not good candidates for bonsai. It is NOT out of laziness that myself and other more experienced bonsai people make these "pronouncements". These judgements are out of actual, hard earned experience. If you struggle a decade or so with a cottonwood, you can, accurately extrapolate to having similar problems with a popular or similar growth habit species. You don't have to grow all the "Bad For Bonsai" species to recognize where one will have problems.

Be my guest, waste your time, go ahead and try to create something with a species deemed "bad" for bonsai. You really want a challenge, try to make something attractive while in flower out of a Catalpa. Or try a tulip poplar, Liriodendron tulipifera, that another good one to frustrate you. Eastern white pine, Pinus strobus, is another that is uniquely frustrating to work with. The small handful of good EWP bonsa prove the point, that the majority are really difficult to work with. There are real reasons, from hard learned experience that "we" try to steer new to the hobby to the species that submit more easily to bonsai culture techniques.

@SilentMouse - you are in Michigan, I collect trees from my family farm near South Haven Michigan. There are some great native Michigan species to use for bonsai that will work more easily than poplars. Though poplars are not "the worst". And it is true, a winter view of a poplar with its white bark is pleasing. But while you are out and about in Michigan, look for hornbeam, Carpinus caroliniana, also Acer rubrum, red maple, the local native gooseberries, Ribes, make interesting flowering and fruiting bonsai. The MI native hawthorns, Crataegus, are great for bonsai. The eastern hemlock, Tsuga canadensis, is a nice, very winter hardy MI native. And if you get to central "sand counties" north of Grand Rapids, there is the jack pine, Pinus banksiana, that is quite good for bonsai, as is American larch, Larix laricina. The wild plum, Prunus americana, is also good for bonsai. There are many, many species that are good, and while it is not my intent to tell you what you can grow and what you can't, in an effort to save you time and minimize frustration, I would steer clear of species with less than ideal reputations.

Oh, and any elm, native or introduced invasive, that grows well outdoors in Michigan will make decent bonsai. Even the American elm, with its large leaves, it turns out the leaves reduce nicely in bonsai cultivation.

I get that. From what I hear, there is always a reason behind a tree being deemed not suitable. One that has to do with the nature of the tree and how it conflicts to what we want from our trees as bonsai. That said, I don't think I'll toss these two seedlings yet? With the knowledge they likely won't become anything beautiful, I don't really have much expectations and will just see if I can do anything worth wild with them. If I can't do much later on, no harm no fowl. Right now they are just taking up space in a seed tray and a bit of water so...nothing much to lose yet :).

If nothing else, they will be a good way to practice some wiring and pruning with little to no stakes. This year I grew a whole tray of silver maples for the same reason even though they are pretty awful for bonsai- the seeds are free from my yard and I have so little experience wiring, so it is a win win.

My hunt for next spring is hornbeam, as I've heard they are a very good local option and would love one! Also very interesting in getting a jack pine if one can be found. Have a red maple already! Hope they are the solution to finding a maple native to here that will cooperate with becoming a bonsai.

Thank you so much for your input!
 
The difference between "good" and "bad" species for bonsai is not because "tradition" says they are bad.
Case in point: I'm growing some Fremont cottonwoods because the seeds float into my backyard for free. Just for fun. They're about 5-6 feet tall now. Pencil thin, but seemingly healthy and growing vigorously.

Back in June I hard pruned just one of them back to 12 inches, just to see how it responded to bonsai techniques.

I had forgotten about it until your post. So today I looked and it was completely dead!

Must have been stuck on tradition.
 
I get that. From what I hear, there is always a reason behind a tree being deemed not suitable. One that has to do with the nature of the tree and how it conflicts to what we want from our trees as bonsai. That said, I don't think I'll toss these two seedlings yet? With the knowledge they likely won't become anything beautiful, I don't really have much expectations and will just see if I can do anything worth wild with them. If I can't do much later on, no harm no fowl. Right now they are just taking up space in a seed tray and a bit of water so...nothing much to lose yet :).

If nothing else, they will be a good way to practice some wiring and pruning with little to no stakes. This year I grew a whole tray of silver maples for the same reason even though they are pretty awful for bonsai- the seeds are free from my yard and I have so little experience wiring, so it is a win win.

My hunt for next spring is hornbeam, as I've heard they are a very good local option and would love one! Also very interesting in getting a jack pine if one can be found. Have a red maple already! Hope they are the solution to finding a maple native to here that will cooperate with becoming a bonsai.

Thank you so much for your input!

Just offering a viewpoint, not looking for a fight ;)

There is actually a danger to "practicing" on sub par material regardless of the endeavor. It may seam there is no harm practicing on cheap but inappropriate material, but there is a danger of learning bad/useless habits.

I have a couple of willows. I like them. I don't think of them as "bonsai" and would never practice wiring on them. Why? The growth habit of the plant is such that all the things you care about in bonsai don't fit quite right. The branches are too pliable so I don't learn correctly how much force I can apply before they snap. Growth is too quick so I don't learn to be patient enough with when to remove wire.

Yes, a lot of that is species dependent...but that's kinda my point. Practicing on the wrong material isn't teaching you anything about the species dependent behaviors of good material. If all you really care about is the mechanics, the cheapest way to practice something like wiring is to pick up some sticks from the neighbors yard and see if you can bend them into the shape of a cow ;)

Again, not looking for a fight. You want to grow a poplar, grow a poplar! Heck, most of my personal collection is inappropriate for bonsai! I just grow them because I enjoy them :) It's actually much more enjoyable to me to NOT have to worry about the rules and creating some trunk line to some dimensions and ideals. I just do what I want how I want to do it :D

But, there are times when inappropriate practice IS bad practice.
 
Just offering a viewpoint, not looking for a fight ;)

There is actually a danger to "practicing" on sub par material regardless of the endeavor. It may seam there is no harm practicing on cheap but inappropriate material, but there is a danger of learning bad/useless habits.

I have a couple of willows. I like them. I don't think of them as "bonsai" and would never practice wiring on them. Why? The growth habit of the plant is such that all the things you care about in bonsai don't fit quite right. The branches are too pliable so I don't learn correctly how much force I can apply before they snap. Growth is too quick so I don't learn to be patient enough with when to remove wire.

Yes, a lot of that is species dependent...but that's kinda my point. Practicing on the wrong material isn't teaching you anything about the species dependent behaviors of good material. If all you really care about is the mechanics, the cheapest way to practice something like wiring is to pick up some sticks from the neighbors yard and see if you can bend them into the shape of a cow ;)

Again, not looking for a fight. You want to grow a poplar, grow a poplar! Heck, most of my personal collection is inappropriate for bonsai! I just grow them because I enjoy them :) It's actually much more enjoyable to me to NOT have to worry about the rules and creating some trunk line to some dimensions and ideals. I just do what I want how I want to do it :D

But, there are times when inappropriate practice IS bad practice.
Amen. I learned a lot of bad habits from willows early on. So when I finally acquired some Japanese maples, I killed them immediately because I didn't know how to water properly. I also didn't know about proper drainage because willows don't care about drainage. And I didn't know how to build a root system because willows will build a root system in anything from blocks of ice to parking lot concrete.
 
I am laughing at the choice of willow as "bad for bonsai" species by @LittleDingus, you are right, for those new to bonsai willow IS a BAD choice. FOr the exact reasons listed.

But, in the hands of someone with experience, someone who has the basics down, and understands how to "read a tree", willows can make exquisite bonsai. They are rarely seen, but at both the National USA Show in Rochester, NY, and at the top ranked shows in EU, there are a small few number of weeping willows that show up, and are outstanding. And the very issues that LittleDingus cited as reasons they are bad for beginners, are correct. These are issues with willows. But in the hands of an experienced grower, they can become beautiful bonsai. Similarly there are at least 3, and maybe it is only 3, eastern white pines, Pinus strobus, that are in major public collections. These three are good enough to be displayed in top ranked national shows. Then, at the lower ranks, there are none, because EWP is extremely difficult to develop as a well proportioned bonsai. There is always something wrong with the proportions, or the looseness of the foliage of the vast majority of EWP bonsai. And there are many hundreds of bonsai practitioners who have kept an EWP for at least a few years before giving up on them. It is not for lack of trying.

So these "Lists of Species Bad for Bonsai" are shifting targets, and to some degree depend on your experience. And to some degree, as techniques are explored, sometimes someone develops the trick or technique needed to handle the problems a species may have. I know someone seriously working on Juniperus virginiana, this person is quite skilled, he may eventually figure out the "trick" needed to get tight foliage pads into your J. virginiana. Time will tell if he succeeds.

Some authors will frequently discourage new to bonsai from starting with JBP or JWP as being difficult to master. Others will encourage you to start right away with these two species, because they form the core of pine bonsai, and bonsai is often defined by that mythic image of an aged pine. May as well start learning the tough stuff right away. Pines are difficult to master, and require a significantly different approach than an elm. But at some point, if a beginner is going to get beyond the beginner level, they do need to dive into pines as bonsai.

So it is a matter of perspective. "good" or "bad" is a moving target. When myself or some else points out a species is "bad" or not worth your time, is because we know what a "time suck" they can be.
 
I am laughing at the choice of willow as "bad for bonsai" species by @LittleDingus, you are right, for those new to bonsai willow IS a BAD choice. FOr the exact reasons listed.

Full disclosure, I do currently have a weeping and a corkscrew willow in my collection. Both were grown from a leafless length of branch stuck in a pot about 2 years ago. I'd really like a pink pussy willow too if I can ever find one again.

I haven't treated them very well this year, but, if they survive the winter I plan to cut off the ugly branch they grew out of and replant the tops. I like them. They make me smile and don't cost me much. I have never and will never grow them as "bonsai". They will always be grown in pots. The difference is that "bonsai" is a specific discipline with a particular ideal. I do have trees I want to grow to that ideal...these willows ain't them.
 
Full disclosure, I do currently have a weeping and a corkscrew willow in my collection. Both were grown from a leafless length of branch stuck in a pot about 2 years ago. I'd really like a pink pussy willow too if I can ever find one again.

I haven't treated them very well this year, but, if they survive the winter I plan to cut off the ugly branch they grew out of and replant the tops. I like them. They make me smile and don't cost me much. I have never and will never grow them as "bonsai". They will always be grown in pots. The difference is that "bonsai" is a specific discipline with a particular ideal. I do have trees I want to grow to that ideal...these willows ain't them.
My profile pic is a corkscrew willow. It's not winning any awards, but I'm pretty pleased with it.
 
Full disclosure, I do currently have a weeping and a corkscrew willow in my collection. Both were grown from a leafless length of branch stuck in a pot about 2 years ago. I'd really like a pink pussy willow too if I can ever find one again.

I haven't treated them very well this year, but, if they survive the winter I plan to cut off the ugly branch they grew out of and replant the tops. I like them. They make me smile and don't cost me much. I have never and will never grow them as "bonsai". They will always be grown in pots. The difference is that "bonsai" is a specific discipline with a particular ideal. I do have trees I want to grow to that ideal...these willows ain't them.


Hey, I was trying to say, willow can work as REAL bonsai, they are not the easiest, but they can work. Learn on an elm, or a juniper, but while you are working on them, keep learning how to refine your willows. Nothing wrong with them, just not as "easy" as an elm or a juniper.
 
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