Sapling Size for Grafting Ponderosa Pine

Greenpoint Vince

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Greenpoint Brooklyn
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Helllllo,

In the spring I will be grafting a collected Ponderosa pine with Japanese Black pine. I will be doing this with a Bonsai professional not on my own. My question is will any size black pine sapling work? I know I could ask the professional but I would like to have as much information as possible before having that conversation.

Thanks in Advance
 
No, not any size will work.
In theory, it should. But in practice I found that, for pines at least, just shy of pencil thick scions are more likely to take.
So depending on your climate, 2-3 year old saplings are better than 1-2 year old.
It's better to get a large donor tree instead of multiple saplings; saplings have varying genetics and traits, since they're seed grown very often. If you want to prevent weird outcomes, like one branch being more vigorous than others, or slight variations in foliage characteristics, try to use one single donor instead.

If the goal is to reduce the needle size, try cutting the apical buds off in late spring, just before they flush out. It works for my ponderosa quite well, and reduces the needles to about half the size of the non-decapitated ones.
 
Sorry for the delay. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. I will take all of it into account. I’m nervous about pruning my ponderosas but if you say it’s safe I’ll look into some more. Thanks again!
 
My question is will any size black pine sapling work
if you are working with a professional you will not be using saplings to graft scions onto Ponderosa for the best results. Talk to the professional first. They will explain how to use the second flush of JBP for scion grafting. You will want to use material from the same JBP not from a group of saplings. And the grafting will not take place in the spring. You have some homework to do.
 
Thanks for your reply Frank. Happy see a message from someone on Vancouver island. Although I live in NY now I’m originally from BC and lived on the island in Tofino for years. Thanks for the insight. I obviously won’t do anything until it’s the right time to do so. I have a few JBP donor trees ready. I’ll keep studying the process until then. Cheers.
 
Thanks for your reply Frank. Happy see a message from someone on Vancouver island. Although I live in NY now I’m originally from BC and lived on the island in Tofino for years. Thanks for the insight. I obviously won’t do anything until it’s the right time to do so. I have a few JBP donor trees ready. I’ll keep studying the process until then. Cheers.
Basically you will start the process the year before with decandling one of your JBP that has the best characteristics to match the ponderosa in bark pattern and desired needle length. All JBP vary when grown from seed. The summer candles will be used for the scions. Timing will be tricky as ponderosa usually wakes up later than JBP and you want the Ponderosa to be just coming out of dormancy, whereas the JBP scions should not be active yet, also just coming out of dormancy. Timing is critical to lessen impact of sap flow on the union. The actual grafting process must be very timely so practise and organization plays a role in the success rate. Good you will be working with a professional if they have actually trained in this aspect. Not all Bonsai professionals will be good at grafting.
 
Hey Frank. Thanks for your reply. After bringing my tree to the professional we've decided that an aproach graft with Scotts pine will be a safer process. It may take longer but will improve the ods. Thanks again for the advice.
 
Hey Frank. Thanks for your reply. After bringing my tree to the professional we've decided that an aproach graft with Scotts pine will be a safer process. It may take longer but will improve the ods. Thanks again for the advice.
Scotts Pine is a good option as well, approach grafts are safer with a bit higher success rate, The disadvantages are the end result is usually not as aesthetically pleasing considering the type of graft and the bark characteristic differentiation between the species. Careful selection of the Scots Pine for bark is advised.
Best of luck. Glad you have some professional assistance for this project. It is always wise to go with the approach preferred by the professional you are working with.
 
I thought I would add what I have learned. I have been grafting pines for four years. I have grafted though out the year and using a variety of techniques. First not all bonsai experts are expert grafters. I say that from experience. Grafting experts are usually in the propagation business.

For root stock two year old trees are often ideal. You should ideally match the Scion and rootstock diameter. If you don’t have a matching diameter you will line up the cambium on only one side. Usually the rootstock will be the same or wider than the scion. Generally for bonsai we want the graft union as low as possible. Preferably starting just above the first root and ending below the first root. To do this I usually taken the rootstock out of the pot and remove the top layer of soil to expose the first few roots. I usually clean the trunk using baby wipes soaked in alcohol or hydrogen peroxide. I usually prepare the scions first by removing some needles. I’ve had the best luck wrapping the scion loosely with stretched buddy tape, aka grafting tape or parafin wrap. It’s important to have the right stuff. Bonsai tonight sells it. It’s worth the price. https://store.bonsaitonight.com/products/buddy-tape-for-grafting?variant=23297606275

Don’t wrap the Scion too tight. You want some air around the needles. It’s also important to start removing this wrapping as the Scion shows survival. The humidify which we depend on early to keep the Scion alive until it gets water from the rootstock can also kill the Scion from fungal growth.

When you make the cut try to end the cut in the rootstock in the center of the trunk. The cut in the rootstock should be slightly longer that the cut on the scion. You can secure the graft using half diameter buddy tape, wide cut rubber bands aka grafting rubbers or a combination of both. Grafting is best done during late dormancy. In California that is in February. It should be about a month before you see bud break on most plants or a bit earlier. Grafting later in the year using fresh candles can be done but I haven had much better success using the second growth from the previous year. The professional growers typically do not wrap the scion because they have a designated green house which is kept moist with controlled light. Some prefer to bring the rootstock into the growing season while keeping scion in dormancy if you have facilities to do that(greenhouses).

Get a good grafting knife if you don’t have one. You should also have a sharpening stone. The grafting knife needs to be really sharp. Personally I find most razor blades to be of poor quality unless you’re using Personna brand. If you don’t have a grafting knife, you can also use a straight edge razor, which you can buy used on eBay for cheap. Straight edge razors tend to be extremely sharp and work well for this kind of work.

Once you see evidence that the scion is surviving.

This will be evident if it’s still green at around six weeks. At this pint you want to slowly expose part of the scion to the elements. The newly grafted trees should be put in a sheltered position with about four hours of sunlight per day gradually increasing overtime.

If you have an early heat wave you need to protect those trees. As time goes on you want to expose more of the scion and slowly start taking foliage off the rootstock. Because the graft is placed lowest under the tree, auxins produced by growth above, will inhibit the growth of the scion, which is trying to stay alive. The goal is to slowly wean the scion off the rootstock tree by removing upper foliage and slowly unwrapping the buddy tape. I typically do this from six weeks and through the summer. Typically the buddy tape is removed when I have seen the scion push. Some rootstock foliage can be left on until the next year.

The reason for previous failures have IMO been due to fungal infection from leaving the scion covered too long in wet conditions, not protecting from heat and wind and probably due to technical error. It is not a static process that is done and forgotten. Some growers take this approach leaving the grafting tape on until the scion pushes through it. That may work in some conditions. I live in San Francisco where it’s often wet and windy during the summer. If it’s really dry where you live then leaving the Scion protected may be better. There are some subjective variables like how long the cut is and how hard you wrap the tape. It’s technically much easier to graft a little higher on the trunk but for bonsai the goal should be to have as little rootstock bark as possible on the final tree. I have also experimented with ways of managing the grafting union over time. Once the union is solid typically the following year I trim off as much of the remaining rootstock bark at the graft junction as possible. Exposed cambium will heal over, preferably with tissue coming from the scion wood. If the graft union starts swelling I typically wrap it with aluminum or copper wire. Even if the wire bites in to the tree it will look better than a bad graft union. The scar tissue and eventual new bark will look better than an obvious graft union. I can’t find my grafting pictures otherwise I would post them. Learning to graft takes experience. For that reason I graft many more threes than I need. I want to master the skill of tree grafting so I practice a lot. You said you will be grafting JBP onto ponderosa pine. I think most people would just grow or buy JBP and avoid the graft union. Like I said I’m a big fan of grafting for the sake of grafting simply to learn. I also graft fruit trees and whatever I can learn from. Typically I graft pine varieties that can not be grown from seed like ‘kotobuki’ or cork bark pines. I find very few of the commercial growers graft well for bonsai purposes. It’s much easier to graft higher on the trunk but this is typically acceptable for bonsai. I have bought well grafted tees from Western Evergreen nursery in Oregon. Stuff from Conifer kingdom has not been grafted well for bonsai. Once I have the genetics I can do quality bonsai grafting at or below the root level on my own. I currently have one pine that has five cultivars grafted on it. If I ever get access to a branch from an unusual pine I stick it on that tree to have for the future. Thus way we can store genetics and have access when we may need it in the future. The bonsai community seems pretty anti-grafting for many trees because the graft union looks unacceptable. To me it’s just a matter of doing quality grafting which I hope to some day master. Personally I like the many variegated pine trees but we rarely see these in the bonsai community because they require grafting. To graft juniper foliage or branches on a mature pine tree approach grafting is easier and generally has a better success rate. In regard to compatibility I think you can graft any pine to any pine, It is possible bit graft juniper to a Cypress but generally its best to graft to the same genus. If you do everything right you may still have graft failure. It’s good to repeat the process. If you have failure. Always ask yourself why it did not work. Sometimes we know sometimes we don’t.

Have fun!!!


Sorry about the length of this response
 
I thought I would add what I have learned. I have been grafting pines for four years. I have grafted though out the year and using a variety of techniques. First not all bonsai experts are expert grafters. I say that from experience. Grafting experts are usually in the propagation business.

For root stock two year old trees are often ideal. You should ideally match the Scion and rootstock diameter. If you don’t have a matching diameter you will line up the cambium on only one side. Usually the rootstock will be the same or wider than the scion. Generally for bonsai we want the graft union as low as possible. Preferably starting just above the first root and ending below the first root. To do this I usually taken the rootstock out of the pot and remove the top layer of soil to expose the first few roots. I usually clean the trunk using baby wipes soaked in alcohol or hydrogen peroxide. I usually prepare the scions first by removing some needles. I’ve had the best luck wrapping the scion loosely with stretched buddy tape, aka grafting tape or parafin wrap. It’s important to have the right stuff. Bonsai tonight sells it. It’s worth the price. https://store.bonsaitonight.com/products/buddy-tape-for-grafting?variant=23297606275

Don’t wrap the Scion too tight. You want some air around the needles. It’s also important to start removing this wrapping as the Scion shows survival. The humidify which we depend on early to keep the Scion alive until it gets water from the rootstock can also kill the Scion from fungal growth.

When you make the cut try to end the cut in the rootstock in the center of the trunk. The cut in the rootstock should be slightly longer that the cut on the scion. You can secure the graft using half diameter buddy tape, wide cut rubber bands aka grafting rubbers or a combination of both. Grafting is best done during late dormancy. In California that is in February. It should be about a month before you see bud break on most plants or a bit earlier. Grafting later in the year using fresh candles can be done but I haven had much better success using the second growth from the previous year. The professional growers typically do not wrap the scion because they have a designated green house which is kept moist with controlled light. Some prefer to bring the rootstock into the growing season while keeping scion in dormancy if you have facilities to do that(greenhouses).

Get a good grafting knife if you don’t have one. You should also have a sharpening stone. The grafting knife needs to be really sharp. Personally I find most razor blades to be of poor quality unless you’re using Personna brand. If you don’t have a grafting knife, you can also use a straight edge razor, which you can buy used on eBay for cheap. Straight edge razors tend to be extremely sharp and work well for this kind of work.

Once you see evidence that the scion is surviving.

This will be evident if it’s still green at around six weeks. At this pint you want to slowly expose part of the scion to the elements. The newly grafted trees should be put in a sheltered position with about four hours of sunlight per day gradually increasing overtime.

If you have an early heat wave you need to protect those trees. As time goes on you want to expose more of the scion and slowly start taking foliage off the rootstock. Because the graft is placed lowest under the tree, auxins produced by growth above, will inhibit the growth of the scion, which is trying to stay alive. The goal is to slowly wean the scion off the rootstock tree by removing upper foliage and slowly unwrapping the buddy tape. I typically do this from six weeks and through the summer. Typically the buddy tape is removed when I have seen the scion push. Some rootstock foliage can be left on until the next year.

The reason for previous failures have IMO been due to fungal infection from leaving the scion covered too long in wet conditions, not protecting from heat and wind and probably due to technical error. It is not a static process that is done and forgotten. Some growers take this approach leaving the grafting tape on until the scion pushes through it. That may work in some conditions. I live in San Francisco where it’s often wet and windy during the summer. If it’s really dry where you live then leaving the Scion protected may be better. There are some subjective variables like how long the cut is and how hard you wrap the tape. It’s technically much easier to graft a little higher on the trunk but for bonsai the goal should be to have as little rootstock bark as possible on the final tree. I have also experimented with ways of managing the grafting union over time. Once the union is solid typically the following year I trim off as much of the remaining rootstock bark at the graft junction as possible. Exposed cambium will heal over, preferably with tissue coming from the scion wood. If the graft union starts swelling I typically wrap it with aluminum or copper wire. Even if the wire bites in to the tree it will look better than a bad graft union. The scar tissue and eventual new bark will look better than an obvious graft union. I can’t find my grafting pictures otherwise I would post them. Learning to graft takes experience. For that reason I graft many more threes than I need. I want to master the skill of tree grafting so I practice a lot. You said you will be grafting JBP onto ponderosa pine. I think most people would just grow or buy JBP and avoid the graft union. Like I said I’m a big fan of grafting for the sake of grafting simply to learn. I also graft fruit trees and whatever I can learn from. Typically I graft pine varieties that can not be grown from seed like ‘kotobuki’ or cork bark pines. I find very few of the commercial growers graft well for bonsai purposes. It’s much easier to graft higher on the trunk but this is typically acceptable for bonsai. I have bought well grafted tees from Western Evergreen nursery in Oregon. Stuff from Conifer kingdom has not been grafted well for bonsai. Once I have the genetics I can do quality bonsai grafting at or below the root level on my own. I currently have one pine that has five cultivars grafted on it. If I ever get access to a branch from an unusual pine I stick it on that tree to have for the future. Thus way we can store genetics and have access when we may need it in the future. The bonsai community seems pretty anti-grafting for many trees because the graft union looks unacceptable. To me it’s just a matter of doing quality grafting which I hope to some day master. Personally I like the many variegated pine trees but we rarely see these in the bonsai community because they require grafting. To graft juniper foliage or branches on a mature pine tree approach grafting is easier and generally has a better success rate. In regard to compatibility I think you can graft any pine to any pine, It is possible bit graft juniper to a Cypress but generally its best to graft to the same genus. If you do everything right you may still have graft failure. It’s good to repeat the process. If you have failure. Always ask yourself why it did not work. Sometimes we know sometimes we don’t.

Have fun!!!


Sorry about the length of this response
Wow! Thanks you so much for taking the to send me this! I'm going to process and take all this info. Ill keep you posted on what we end up doing in the spring!
 
Scotts Pine is a good option as well, approach grafts are safer with a bit higher success rate, The disadvantages are the end result is usually not as aesthetically pleasing considering the type of graft and the bark characteristic differentiation between the species. Careful selection of the Scots Pine for bark is advised.
Best of luck. Glad you have some professional assistance for this project. It is always wise to go with the approach preferred by the professional you are working with.
Thanks Frank! Ill keep you posted in the spring!
 
Hello, fun subject!!
Love to hear your progress on this, Greenpoint Vince!
I'm busy collecting ponderosa pine seeds. Some will be just Pondies, on some I will try the JBP->Pondy graft. Don't have much grafting experience, but I will have lots of material to work with and learn.

So, thank you to everyone who shared their experience and wisdom here!
 
Same, I'd be interested to see Vince's results.
For @Mats Hagström , does the size of the branch matter that you're grafting on? Like is a small shoot of one year's growth safer to graft than a larger branch? I have a white pine myself that I want to reposition some branches on but have zero grafting experience
 
From my experience, I would say grafting small branches on small root stock has advantages, but it can be challenging to make the cuts and get perfect alignment.

A large scion branch requires much more water flow. Large diameter scion also have a smaller percentage of cambium in comparison to wood on cross-section.

After care is incredibly important. Personally, I believe the difference between those who have high success rate versus those who have high failure rates is the aftercare, especially having access to a greenhouse with only filtered light.

If you get a heat wave early on your scions will cook. If you wrap the scion in buddy tape aka grafting tape or paraffin then make sgure in has a draining hole and some openings to allow some air exchange and does not get too wet inside. Finally try to seal the graft union with liquid cut paste of sealing wax where you have access after applying the wrap around the graft union. Above all protect these newly grafted trees from intense sun and wind. The nursery grafters all use a green house. When grafting on to an established tree you can rig a little shade cover above the grafted branch using any sun blocking material. I’ve seen Peter Tea do this on grafted junipers.

Have fun.

Anyone looking to pre bonsai may want to check out Cedar Rose Nursery in Placerville CA. They ship but the field grown trees sell fast.
 
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