Sango Kaku Material Worth Airlayering?

[SerSwanky]

I’ve been following everyone’s differing opinions on what makes big box store material worthwhile verses buying prebonsai material from sapling. I really appreciated all the thought that everyone put into their posts, I find it very helpful seeing different ideas and peoples rebuttals etc.

Big box store Acer Palmatum

I noticed our local had carried regular acer Palmatum this year. They are not grafted. Would this make decent bonsai material?

www.bonsainut.com

I found my own Sango Kaku at Home Depot and was thinking of buying it to try my hand at airlayering (I have never done it). The price tag is a bit steep ($80) for my taste so I’m torn on whether or not it’s worth the hassle. Or if it would just be smarter just to continue hunting for something else.

It’s about 6 feet tall, no ugly grafting that I could spot, good taper, and a slight curve at the base of the trunk which was about an inch across. I haven’t read up on airlayering as a technique or air laying specifically on this type of tree yet (that’s tomorrows task).

I thought it’d throw up some photos and get some opinions on if I should pull the trigger on it. Obviously in the end I’ll have to decide. I just don’t know if it’s worth spending $80 on. I’ve been looking for a month and a half, basically since trees started being put out in nurseries but haven’t found anything even remotely worthwhile. Mostly everything for sale is peach, pear, apricot trees that are straight as an arrow or purple leaf sand cherry bushes.

 

[BonjourBonsai]

I think the graft is right where the trunk turns from gray/green to coral. It's the "V" you can see.

That's also where the wiggle is.

The pink part is straight for a long stretch with nothing interesting to break it up.

I would pass. HD usually has some mugos, junipers, or boxwoods that can be had for much less and are fun to play with. I would look at them.

 

[rollwithak]

that’s so funny, I literally just came in the house from doing this one. Who knows if it will take, but I was gonna remove that limb anyway so nothing to lose! I bought mine at Costco, don’t think I’d spend $80 on a shot in the dark. You can put that $80 towards some good pre-bonsai.

 

[19Mateo83]

That’s a pretty sangu with a pretty clean graft. if your going to try your hand at airlayering I would consider the one in the back. Appears to have more bigger branches to try on. And you could get a meaty twin trunk by going just below the split.

 

[rollwithak]

I think the graft is right where the trunk turns from gray/green to coral. It's the "V" you can see.

That's also where the wiggle is.

The pink part is straight for a long stretch with nothing interesting to break it up.

I would pass. HD usually has some mugos, junipers, or boxwoods that can be had for much less and are fun to play with. I would look at them.

It’s a pretty damn good graft too!!!

 

[Mikecheck123]

I easily see 8 trees there, so I'd say go for it. You can achieve that in just three seasons by always airlayering the mid points.

That being said, I mucked around Sango kaku for years before determining that they're not that great for bonsai. Long internodes and leggy growth.

But it's also ironically one of the easiest cultivars to airlayer. I never ever failed, which I can't say for many other JM cultivars.

 

[rollwithak]

This dude is selling pre-bonsai JM not too far from you

Japanese maple pre bonsai

@rodeolthr Am curious why are you not listing it here and skip Ebay fees? You can give discount half of the fees to the winner. Am I missing something?

www.bonsainut.com

 

[SerSwanky]

I think the graft is right where the trunk turns from gray/green to coral. It's the "V" you can see.

That's also where the wiggle is.

The pink part is straight for a long stretch with nothing interesting to break it up.

I would pass. HD usually has some mugos, junipers, or boxwoods that can be had for much less and are fun to play with. I would look at them.

Ahhhh I didn’t catch that. Good eye. Yeah you’re probably right, I should probably pass on it. I’ve just really wanted to find a good deciduous tree to start working on but so far keep coming up short. I keep missing the local bonsai club in my area, I’ll have to pick their brains when I can go to a meeting and see where they are getting their material (if they aren’t growing it themselves).

that’s so funny, I literally just came in the house from doing this one. Who knows if it will take, but I was gonna remove that limb anyway so nothing to lose! I bought mine at Costco, don’t think I’d spend $80 on a shot in the dark. You can put that $80 towards some good pre-bonsai.

Classic! Hopefully it works out! Yeah you guys all talked me off the ledge. My wife will thank you all.

That’s a pretty sangu with a pretty clean graft. if your going to try your hand at airlayering I would consider the one in the back. Appears to have more bigger branches to try on. And you could get a meaty twin trunk by going just below the split.

Funny you say that, that was actually the first tree I was looking and took photos of but I thought the other base was “better” since it curved slightly. However this tree is $100.

 

[SerSwanky]

That’s a pretty sangu with a pretty clean graft. if your going to try your hand at airlayering I would consider the one in the back. Appears to have more bigger branches to try on. And you could get a meaty twin trunk by going just below the split.

There are a few more local landscape nurseries in my area and some “sculpture” nurseries I’m going to check out again this Saturday. If I come up empty again I might go back and pick it up and see how it goes. Worst case I get to practice airlayering.

 

[19Mateo83]

There is a lot that could be air layered on that one but the internodes are a bit long.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Here in PNW Vine Maple are to be had for free and have prettiest leaves of all. Just go out and collect.

 

[SerSwanky]

There is a lot that could be air layered on that one but the internodes are a bit long.

The endless struggle. I'll keep hunting. Onward!

Here in PNW Vine Maple are to be had for free and have prettiest leaves of all. Just go out and collect.

I'll have to look them up! I don't know if I've seen those (or at least recognized them). All the forests around me are ponderosa pine for the most part in my valley. Sounds like I'll have to go for a hike here this weekend and see what I come across.

 

[rockm]

The only "good" graft on a JM is a very low one--like on the nebari. Anything that high on the trunk is just going to get uglier over time. Not worth the $80 for either that graft. The uninteresting rest of the tree is not great either. Sure air layering can give you more "free" trees, IF you know what you're doing, but from this you'll get another six straight uninteresting beanpole maples with a decade of work ahead of them. Not money well spent...

 

[SerSwanky]

The only "good" graft on a JM is a very low one--like on the nebari. Anything that high on the trunk is just going to get uglier over time. Not worth the $80 for either that graft. The uninteresting rest of the tree is not great either. Sure air layering can give you more "free" trees, IF you know what you're doing, but from this you'll get another six straight uninteresting beanpole maples with a decade of work ahead of them. Not money well spent...

Duly noted! I honestly thought I was doing pretty good. "...Okay it looks like it has a decent lower trunk...it at least has SOME small movement compared to the other sticks...I think this has a little taper...don't see a graft anywhere....I can probably airlayer this and make it work...? Just gotta figure out how to airlayer now...EIGHTY DOLLARS...geez...my wife will murder me if I get this...but it looks so cool..."

I know all the right words, just not quite how to apply them yet! I'm just getting impatient looking for material to start working on. I know this hobby is not one to be impatient in so it's a good test of virtue. I'm not a complete fan of coniferous trees to be honest. They aren't something I really want to work on. I love, love, love deciduous trees and so I'm real gun ho to find one.

 

[Kullas]

I say get you something to work on like some maple saplings or one thats a couple years old. Heck even some clippings from that JM in the parking lot. Find something to scratch the itch until get you something "nice".

 

[SerSwanky]

I say get you something to work on like some maple saplings or one thats a couple years old. Heck even some clippings from that JM in the parking lot. Find something to scratch the itch until get you something "nice".

If I had a yard I totally would.

At the moment however, I live in an apartment with an L shaped balcony that wraps around our living room on the second floor facing NW. It's a great space but I have to be strategic with how many trees/space available/not-annoy-my-wife-by-messing-up-all-her-hard-work-making-a-rad-outdoor-aesthetic or by bringing home a bunch of trees that look pathetic ha. I need to get a bench set up out there, that'll help me organize and know how many trees I can have. What what I have currently have crowds our sitting table.

 

[rockm]

Duly noted! I honestly thought I was doing pretty good. "...Okay it looks like it has a decent lower trunk...it at least has SOME small movement compared to the other sticks...I think this has a little taper...don't see a graft anywhere....I can probably airlayer this and make it work...? Just gotta figure out how to airlayer now...EIGHTY DOLLARS...geez...my wife will murder me if I get this...but it looks so cool..."

I know all the right words, just not quite how to apply them yet! I'm just getting impatient looking for material to start working on. I know this hobby is not one to be impatient in so it's a good test of virtue. I'm not a complete fan of coniferous trees to be honest. They aren't something I really want to work on. I love, love, love deciduous trees and so I'm real gun ho to find one.

Are you looking for something to work on AS A BONSAI, or something to fuzt around with? Two different things. Neither is superior, but defining which you're after will help cool your jets and provide some direction.

If you're after an actual deciduous bonsai to work on, get an established tree from an auction or club. Looks like the Puget Sound Bonsai Association's club auction is coming in June. Even if it's a drive, might be worth it to scratch an itch.

Puget Sound Bonsai Association, Home

Puget Sound Bonsai Association. PSBA. Seattle bonsai. Viewing Stones and Suiseki stones. Bonsai photos. Pacific Northwest bonsai. bonsai classes.

www.pugetsoundbonsai.com

There are also more regional clubs in eastern Wash. that might also be having similar events soon

Inland Empire Bonsai Society

A group of bonsai enthusiasts in the Spokane/Coeur d'Alene region & beyond

www.inlandbonsai.com

Resources

National bonsai foundation - Washington, DC: https://www.bonsai-nbf.org/ American Bonsai Society: http://www.absbonsai.org/ Inland Empire Bonsai Society - Spokane, WA: ...

yakimabs.weebly.com

If you're after raw stock, then have at it. Just realize with such stock you won't be doing much actual bonsai work for a while.

 

[SerSwanky]

Are you looking for something to work on AS A BONSAI, or something to fuzt around with? Two different things. Neither is superior, but defining which you're after will help cool your jets and provide some direction.

If you're after an actual deciduous bonsai to work on, get an established tree from an auction or club. Looks like the Puget Sound Bonsai Association's club auction is coming in June. Even if it's a drive, might be worth it to scratch an itch.

Puget Sound Bonsai Association, Home

Puget Sound Bonsai Association. PSBA. Seattle bonsai. Viewing Stones and Suiseki stones. Bonsai photos. Pacific Northwest bonsai. bonsai classes.

www.pugetsoundbonsai.com

There are also more regional clubs in eastern Wash. that might also be having similar events soon

Inland Empire Bonsai Society

A group of bonsai enthusiasts in the Spokane/Coeur d'Alene region & beyond

www.inlandbonsai.com

Resources

National bonsai foundation - Washington, DC: https://www.bonsai-nbf.org/ American Bonsai Society: http://www.absbonsai.org/ Inland Empire Bonsai Society - Spokane, WA: ...

yakimabs.weebly.com

If you're after raw stock, then have at it. Just realize with such stock you won't be doing much actual bonsai work for a while.

I'm definitely torn. I would like to make something that is not a bonsai into a bonsai.

I'm torn between wanting to have material that is somewhat developed (not a sapling, at least not to start, but has a decent size trunk to start on). I'd like to develop a tree myself and feel like I put my own stamp on it, rather than buying a completed tree that I am just trying to maintain.

Maybe that's not the right mindset to have but that's how I perceive it. I know this isn't a hobby of instant gratification. I just feel like getting an established tree without "earning" it in a sense is cheating when I haven't any experience with putting basic bonsai techniques into practice. And I'd hate to kill a tree someone put a decade of their life into crafting. So I want material I can practice picking branches on a somewhat established trunk to wire and prune etc etc rather than watch a chopped trunk grow. Later down the line when I have one or two trees I won't mind doing that.

Basically I'm just trying to get lucky on finding raw stock that I can fake it until I make it. Which I'm discovering is harder than anticipated. This forum is great but can be mildly deceiving if I don't watch myself. All the posts show "great discounted bonsai material finds!" even though I know in the back of my mind they are found after walking out of 50 stores empty handed. The success stories are posted not the "I didn't find anything again" stories.

I have family over in the Seattle area, I will definitely be stopping by next time I'm in the area and hopefully can time it around an event. At the very least it'd be cool to see some completed trees! The Inland Empire Bonsai Club I plan on going to their next meet in May which I'm very excited for.

 

[rockm]

I'm definitely torn. I would like to make something that is not a bonsai into a bonsai.

I'm torn between wanting to have material that is somewhat developed (not a sapling, at least not to start, but has a decent size trunk to start on). I'd like to develop a tree myself and feel like I put my own stamp on it, rather than buying a completed tree that I am just trying to maintain.

Maybe that's not the right mindset to have but that's how I perceive it. I know this isn't a hobby of instant gratification. I just feel like getting an established tree without "earning" it in a sense is cheating when I haven't any experience with putting basic bonsai techniques into practice. And I'd hate to kill a tree someone put a decade of their life into crafting. So I want material I can practice picking branches on a somewhat established trunk to wire and prune etc etc rather than watch a chopped trunk grow. Later down the line when I have one or two trees I won't mind doing that.

Basically I'm just trying to get lucky on finding raw stock that I can fake it until I make it. Which I'm discovering is harder than anticipated. This forum is great but can be mildly deceiving if I don't watch myself. All the posts show "great discounted bonsai material finds!" even though I know in the back of my mind they are found after walking out of 50 stores empty handed. The success stories are posted not the "I didn't find anything again" stories.

I have family over in the Seattle area, I will definitely be stopping by next time I'm in the area and hopefully can time it around an event. At the very least it'd be cool to see some completed trees! The Inland Empire Bonsai Club I plan on going to their next meet in May which I'm very excited for.

the notion that in buying a more established, recognizable bonsai, you're somehow buying a "completed" tree is not accurate and can wind up being frustrating. It's not true and can prevent you from advancing much or quickly. In buying a more developed tree, you don't have to invest hundreds. You can get a reasonable ficus for instance for under $100. And if you worry about killing stuff, you're in the wrong hobby. EVERYONE who has been doing this for more than five years has killed something. If they say they haven't they're either not telling the truth or they're not doing it right and learning. The first five years is learning, nothing more, nothing less.

Bonsai are never finished. In buying a more established bonsai, you're simply buying time--the time it took to get it further along in its life as a bonsai. IN setting cuttings, seedlings, etc. you're starting the tree at step one in a journey of decades. The first five are simply growing with very little refining. It can be a good thing, but if it's the only thing you're doing, you're slowing yourself down. It is wise not buying everything you see.

The way to learn is get out and see bonsai IN-PERSON. IF you have relatives on the coast, you can do that. The Pacific Bonsai Museum in in Federal Way and worth a visit. Elandan Gardens, a bonsai/nursery run by American bonsai pioneer Dan Robinson is over in Bremerton. Also a must see.

Elandan Gardens

www.elandangardens.com

Pacific Bonsai Museum |

pacificbonsaimuseum.org

You "earn" trees down the road by learning on trees NOW. Confidence comes with understanding, understanding comes with time and experimenting with methods. Being timid gets you nowhere

 

[SerSwanky]

the notion that in buying a more established, recognizable bonsai, you're somehow buying a "completed" tree is not accurate and can wind up being frustrating. It's not true and can prevent you from advancing much or quickly. In buying a more developed tree, you don't have to invest hundreds. You can get a reasonable ficus for instance for under $100. And if you worry about killing stuff, you're in the wrong hobby. EVERYONE who has been doing this for more than five years has killed something. If they say they haven't they're either not telling the truth or they're not doing it right and learning. The first five years is learning, nothing more, nothing less.

Bonsai are never finished. In buying a more established bonsai, you're simply buying time--the time it took to get it further along in its life as a bonsai. IN setting cuttings, seedlings, etc. you're starting the tree at step one in a journey of decades. The first five are simply growing with very little refining. It can be a good thing, but if it's the only thing you're doing, you're slowing yourself down. It is wise not buying everything you see.

The way to learn is get out and see bonsai IN-PERSON. IF you have relatives on the coast, you can do that. The Pacific Bonsai Museum in in Federal Way and worth a visit. Elandan Gardens, a bonsai/nursery run by American bonsai pioneer Dan Robinson is over in Bremerton. Also a must see.

Elandan Gardens

www.elandangardens.com

Pacific Bonsai Museum |

pacificbonsaimuseum.org

You "earn" trees down the road by learning on trees NOW. Confidence comes with understanding, understanding comes with time and experimenting with methods. Being timid gets you nowhere

Well you convinced me. I found a local bonsai nursery, Gray to Green Nursery (you can check em out on instagram) that travels nearby to sell their trees on Saturdays. I'll give them a visit and see what I find! I don't mind killing raw material, I'd just feel bad killing a tree someone else put a lot of time into. I guess I just need to push past that.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.