Sachi eda, kiki eda vs uke eda translation and understanding (dominant branch vs counterpoint branch)

[Glaucus]

Ok, maybe the title is confusing to some, but these are the Japanese terms of the branches fundamental to a bonsai's design.
I don't see them discussed all too often in the English community. I see Ryan Neil is using these terms, and not translating them.

So in part I was wondering about what would be the acceptable translation in English? Or do we use the Japanese terms?
Even searching Bonsainut, one isn't going to find an answer or definition.

First off, 'eda' 枝 means branch, so that is clear enough.
Then, there are three sets of kanji I have seen the Japanese use.

効き枝 reading: kiki eda
差し枝 reading sachi eda
受け枝 reading: uke eda

I believe these readings are correct. The first two I think are largely synonymous, but there may be nuances. sachi eda seems to refer to the most dominant branch. But Japanese language translation tools turn it into things like ‘effective branch’, 'active branch’, ‘defining branch’.
Sachi eda would not necessarily be the first branch, but it would be the biggest, strongest, most visually present, the most design defining branch. At least, that is my understanding.

Then uke eda would be the second most dominant branch, often acting as a counterpoint or foil to the sachi eda, breaking or counterbalancing the flow set up by the sachi eda and the trunkline.
Therefore, literal translations to uke eda are ‘receiving branch’ , ‘passive branch’ or ‘point branch’.

I also have seen Ryan Neil use I believe the word 'Kaishi eda'. But I don't know what that means.

I will see if I can post some pictures demonstrating what my understanding about these terms are. And maybe people will have a consensus of what we should be using in the English language community. And maybe this bit of a vague and meandering post can be somehow used as a reference in the future. Because right now if you google, you get zero hits on bonsainut.

So based on the glossary of the website of the Shikoku newspaper on bonsai:

GLOSSARY | BONSAI

A collection of bonsai-related technical terms. Search terms to find out their pronunciations and meanings.

bonsai.shikoku-np.co.jp

Which seems very reliable, I crossed-reference the glossary with my own translation/understanding, to come to the following conclusion:

It is not completely clear to me what the difference between kiki eda and sachi eda would be. Would a tree have both? Or would the most dominant branch be called either one or the other based on the overall bonsai design?
There is also a thing about the Japanese language lacking plural. Can there be more than one of each? Or only one?
It might be that the translation means that sachi eda (usually one but maybe rarely more) is just a very large and dominant branch. And that kiki eda is the focal point branch or show branch of the entire design (only 1).

And uke eda is pretty clearly a branch that counterbalances the kiki eda, so usually the second largest branch on the opposite side of the tree, so the design doesn't feel like it is falling over to one side.

What translation do English language books on bonsai design use? Especially those written by Japanese authors? And maybe there are diagrams. even just a quick google image search didn't give me an image I could post.
I actually have zero books on bonsai, except for satsuki.

 

[rockm]

It's confusing and mostly beside the point. One of the problems is the English spelling of Japanese terms. "Sachi" eda, for instance, is spelled "Sashi Eda" in most of the usage I've seen. Do a search on that term here and you'll come up with stuff. I've seen it spelled with the "sh" in most bonsai books.

FWIW, you don't see these terms much in the West because they're mostly hard to remember when "first branch" etc. fit the bill. Just because it's Japanese doesn't mean we should default to it... just sayin.

 

[Glaucus]

OMG I misspelled. So much for my Japanese language expertise.... I blame it on dyslexia. I even have it 'sashi eda' in my translated document.

I don't know why it is besides the point, though.

It is NOT the first branch. That is 'ichi no eda'. Whether a branch comes first or second has nothing to do with the role they play in the design.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Gosh when @Glaucus first sent me the link to all Japanese bonsai terms defined, I thought I’d rarely use it. However when I first got ito bonsai I was given a lot of older books with these terms sprinkled in them and was somewhat flummoxed and could of really used this link.

”FWIW, you don't see these terms much in the West because they're mostly hard to remember when "first branch" etc. fit the bill. Just because it's Japanese doesn't mean we should default to it... just sayin.“ @rockm Of course you are correct, we shouldn‘t default to Japanese terms, but it does help to know the equivalent concept, especially with, pruning terms.

In practice in the collection, I don’t need terms at all…experience, the tree and reference images tell the story well.

Now, the deeper I get into studying bonsai online, you tube, websites, books and articles, the more I find it useful to have a tool to translate bonsai terms when they appear, especially in Japanese and foreign texts. I feel every serious beginner ought to have this link at hand just in case. Doesn’t cost anything and is really handy once in awhile.

Just my thoughts

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[rockm]

OMG I misspelled. So much for my Japanese language expertise.... I blame it on dyslexia. I even have it 'sashi eda' in my translated document.

I don't know why it is besides the point, though.

It is NOT the first branch. That is 'ichi no eda'. Whether a branch comes first or second has nothing to do with the role they play in the design.

It's really not beside the point. It mostly IS the point. There is no real point in knowing the difference between an "ichi" and a "sashi" no eda...It's Japanese. Using obscure terms puts even more limits on people trying to get into bonsai.

Such minute. strict adherence to precise terms and practices is what has held bonsai in the west back. For years in the 80's, 90's and 00's people insisted that the "Japanese did" this or that. It became rote repetition and a little bit pretentious. Yeah, Ryan uses the terms, but he spent years under Japanese tutelage in Japan.

You want to get laughs? Walk into a local bonsai club meeting and start spouting "Shashi Eda" "ichi eda" and other obscure stuff... they'll love ya....

 

[Glaucus]

That doesn't make any sense, man. I don't even know what to say. I am not even taking a position on using Japanese or English terms.
If you talk about a branch that balances or counterbalances, why would you call it 'first' or 'second'? Those are not connected in any way.

Additionally, I cannot translate Japanese articles, removing 'obscure stuff' and making bonsai more accessible to audiences in the west if I don't translate it properly.
Those terms are the meat and potatoes of talking about tree design. The Japanese don't use it to complicate things. They are just simple words to them.

Doesn't have anything to do with 'the Japanese did it, so we do it as well'.

I think the laugh is on you.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

It's really not beside the point. It mostly IS the point. There is no real point in knowing the difference between an "ichi" and a "sashi" no eda...It's Japanese. Using obscure terms puts even more limits on people trying to get into bonsai.

Hmm…. It seems @Glaucus is actually trying to help folks solve this issue?

Such minute. strict adherence to precise terms and practices is what has held bonsai in the west back. For years in the 80's, 90's and 00's people insisted that the "Japanese did" this or that. It became rote repetition and a little bit pretentious. Yeah, Ryan uses the terms, but he spent years under Japanese tutelage in Japan.

Certainly happened. And yes, quite a few American Japanese bonsai hobbyists didn’t want to help non Japanese Americans other learn bonsai… at least our west here . But not anymore.

Learning a bit of another culture’s, especially a practice developed by another culture, is easier when knowing a bit of their baseline knowledge.

You want to get laughs? Walk into a local bonsai club meeting and start spouting "Shashi Eda" "ichi eda" and other obscure stuff... they'll love ya....

Actually our club PSBA, loves to learn and laugh together and likely wouldn’t laugh at this example. But certainly would ask what it meant as we would want to add this information to our personal storehouses of information.

Again, just my thoughts on the topic.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[leatherback]

Such minute. strict adherence to precise terms and practices is what has held bonsai in the west back. For years in the 80's, 90's and 00's people insisted that the "Japanese did" this or that. It became rote repetition and a little bit pretentious. Yeah, Ryan uses the terms, but he spent years under Japanese tutelage in Japan.

Pfff not THIS again. It has been discussed over and over again. Bonsai is a chinese-japanese artform where key-words do not literally translate. As such there is a need to have a deeper understanding of what is meant, rather than just the literal translation, and ensure we all talk about the same thing. Failure to do so wrecks bonsai to the domain of topiary and degrades it.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Pfff not THIS again. It has been discussed over and over again. Bonsai is a chinese-japanese artform where key-words do not literally translate. As such there is a need to have a deeper understanding of what is meant, rather than just the literal translation, and ensure we all talk about the same thing. Failure to do so wrecks bonsai to the domain of topiary and degrades it.

Good thought @leatherback

…so one specific question. How does this specific resource posted stack up to your personal understanding as a teacher help others build their understanding of the concepts of this art form?

cheers
DSD sends

 

[rockm]

Hmm…. It seems @Glaucus is actually trying to help folks solve this issue?


Certainly happened. And yes, quite a few American Japanese bonsai hobbyists didn’t want to help non Japanese Americans other learn bonsai… at least our west here . But not anymore.

Learning a bit of another culture’s, especially a practice developed by another culture, is easier when knowing a bit of their baseline knowledge.

Actually our club PSBA, loves to learn and laugh together and likely wouldn’t laugh at this example. But certainly would ask what it meant as we would want to add this information to our personal storehouses of information.

Again, just my thoughts on the topic.

cheers
DSD sends

I have worked for multinational Japanese corporations. I collect shin hanga, and ningyo. I have lived in more than a dozen areas of the U.S. in the last 60 years--from the PNW to the desert southwest, to New England and the South. I'm familiar and comfortable with other cultures, from Native and Mexican Americans, to Yankees and rednecks, and yeah, the Japanese --they were co-workers and my bosses for while.

I love to learn about other cultures. I learned from working with the Japanese that they tend to have a term or saying for almost everything which can be headache inducing and mostly unnecessary.

 

[Glaucus]

Hey, I won't deny Ryan Neil isn't trying to be pretentious at times. But even for just something like 'surface roots' everyone here likes to use the word 'nebari'. We use Japanese terms when it is useful and this naturally develps. If someone wants to make a thread arguing that we are using too many Japanese words, go for it.

But if there are two design concepts, one based on balance of visual weight and one based on the flow of lines, and one Japanese term refers to a branch in terms of visual weight, and the other to a branch based on flow of lines, surely it is helpful for non-Japanese to know about this?
Similarly, the first branch isn't always the largest. Even in English I am sure people have talked about things like 'the dominant branch' or the 'show branch' or the 'character branch'.
I am just wondering if I can resolve some of the confusion and the nuance between kiki eda and sashi eda.
And maybe some Mirai Live subscriber could tell me what Ryan Neil means with 'Kaishi eda'.

That way, I can translate my article WITHOUT using the Japanese words. But it would be nice if we all use the same term for the same thing. And that there are direct parallels on the Japanese terminology.

 

[dbonsaiw]

But even for just something like 'surface roots' everyone here likes to use the word 'nebari'

That's what came to my mind as I read the post. I have too little experience in bonsai to really have an opinion on this specific issue, but I tend to find defined terms useful. It allows us to use less words to express a concept and tends to force everyone onto the same page when using these words. But if that defined term can be an English word (or a few words), as opposed to Japanese or other foreign language, that is more useful for this native English speaker.

 

[BobbyLane]

Hey, I won't deny Ryan Neil isn't trying to be pretentious at times. But even for just something like 'surface roots' everyone here likes to use the word 'nebari'. We use Japanese terms when it is useful and this naturally develps. If someone wants to make a thread arguing that we are using too many Japanese words, go for it.

But if there are two design concepts, one based on balance of visual weight and one based on the flow of lines, and one Japanese term refers to a branch in terms of visual weight, and the other to a branch based on flow of lines, surely it is helpful for non-Japanese to know about this?
Similarly, the first branch isn't always the largest. Even in English I am sure people have talked about things like 'the dominant branch' or the 'show branch' or the 'character branch'.
I am just wondering if I can resolve some of the confusion and the nuance between kiki eda and sashi eda.
And maybe some Mirai Live subscriber could tell me what Ryan Neil means with 'Kaishi eda'.

That way, I can translate my article WITHOUT using the Japanese words. But it would be nice if we all use the same term for the same thing. And that there are direct parallels on the Japanese terminology.

I guess it could be useful yes. This is why its highly beneficial to look at good trees. Its true the first branch is usually seen as the 'feature' branch the one that sets the tone for the whole tree. I know Ryan likes to set that branch first and work above it all the way around to the other side, I do it this way sometimes now too. and yes the first branch doesnt always need to be the heaviest either and we see this done in natural style trees, in nature also the first branch isnt always the heaviest. Youll see it on some of Walters trees and Maros's.
Depends on the material at the end of the day. Ive never thought that these ideas should have set terms though.
If one studies good trees and tries to understand why this branch was laid here or there you should begin to use these concepts on your trees. Mach uses a lot of these concepts and has been posting his work in great detail here.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I have worked for multinational Japanese corporations. I collect shin hanga, and ningyo. I have lived in more than a dozen areas of the U.S. in the last 60 years--from the PNW to the desert southwest, to New England and the South. I'm familiar and comfortable with other cultures, from Native and Mexican Americans, to Yankees and rednecks, and yeah, the Japanese --they were co-workers and my bosses for while.

I love to learn about other cultures. I learned from working with the Japanese that they tend to have a term or saying for almost everything which can be headache inducing and mostly unnecessary.

You should know we all appreciate and enjoy your perspective @rockm . Sounds like you have lived in a lot of interesting places. Pretty much like us old Coast Guard folks!

In any event as I’ve found one persons headache and view of what’s pretentious fosters in others enjoyment and deep appreciation. My better half provides a great example for me.

Since this forum, to me, is at least in part an educational forum, it seems that whatever tools we can muster to enhance understanding for others might be a good thing.

Yet that is only the view from my perspective.

Best
DSD sends

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

If one studies good trees and tries to understand why this branch was laid here or there you should begin to use these concepts on your trees. Mach uses a lot of these concepts and has been posting his work in great detail here.

Yes. Some really great points.

By working hard at practicing techniques and studying many trees you have developed a gestalt of what is bonsai to you that is applied and enhanced each time you look at trees. I’ll bet this took years to acquire.

Others here are striving for this wholeness of view where one can see not just the tree but what it could be.

This requires persistence while developing a good mental tool kit that blends the design concepts, practical and theoretical definitions and techniques that make up bonsai together.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Glaucus]

If one studies good trees and tries to understand why this branch was laid here or there you should begin to use these concepts on your trees. Mach uses a lot of these concepts and has been posting his work in great detail here.

Doesn't help me translate a Japanese article that is based on these concepts/terminology. I am not telling people to use more Japanese terms. I am just wondering if someone here knows the difference between sashi eda en kiki eda. And if someone has good English translations. Or what terms we as a community are already using.

 

[StarJasmine]

Doesn't help me translate a Japanese article that is based on these concepts/terminology. I am not telling people to use more Japanese terms. I am just wondering if someone here knows the difference between sashi eda en kiki eda. And if someone has good English translations. Or what terms we as a community are already using.

Do we have any Japanese speaking members on Bnut that we could tag into this thread? Perhaps they could help to explain it?

 

[leatherback]

Actually our club PSBA, loves to learn and laugh together and likely wouldn’t laugh at this example. But certainly would ask what it meant as we would want to add this information to our personal storehouses of information.

Yup, my experience too.

 

[leatherback]

resource posted stack up to your personal understanding

I find that for most beginners it is a step too far to work with the exact terms, and these are brought in over time. First learn the basic concepts, then develop deeper understanding & terminology. Focus is not on words, but on doing [in my book]. Words however come in handy when describing exactly what you mean. (Reminds me of my PhD supervisor when he corrected one of my manuscripts and I told him: "Why change that word; It roughly means the same" with him slightly annoyed "Roughly is not exactly, and we try to be as exact as we can here to avoid confusion").

I think the resource provides a really nice overview of commonly used terms and an indication towards the ideas they bring across.

 

[Ugo]

Hi!

From what Ive learned Sachi-eda, is the most important branche.
The one that if taken off would completly destroy the look of the tree.
So its not necessary the lowest branche and can be at any position.
My understanding is the Sachi-eda is there to give balance to the design and is placed at the opposite of a the focal point (ex: deadwood)

Let say that I use Japanese terms just because the bonsai design course I was following had this terminology.