Revolutionary Hawthorn Collection Technique

[brewmeister83]

So I've been combing through a bunch of bonsai sites and blogs in an attempt to A) stave off cabin fever and B) try to learn something I didn't know before.

I recently read through Tony Tickle's blog/site: http://yamadoriforsale.com/tag/technique/ and the post on a "revolutionary" technique for stimulating root growth on newly collected Yamadori (particularly hawthorn) caught my eye.

I looked for the ebook he said he was going to have out last year, or a post from someone else describing this technique, but I couldn't find anything about it.

Since I'm going to be collecting some fairly large hawthorn myself this spring I'd love to know what his technique entails to give them the best chance of surviving. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Thanks in advance

 

[dick benbow]

was glad to see your post. many of the UK folks are involved with Noelanders, but I'd get on his site and write him and ask. I know many of us would like to know. Let us know pls...

 

[M. Frary]

Found some nice Hawthorns to collect and that would be good to know if there was a technique to get a better survival rate.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

If you want to be really safe, in the spring, trench around it, saw it down to a stump, and collect the following spring. As an alternative, you can saw it down, dig it up, bare-root, then plant in the ground for a year to recover, before moving to a pot the second or third year.

A few notes:
1. I have never lost a hawthorn when collecting. They are extremely strong.
2. The big roots should be shortened at collection, really shortened. I believe that trees are never stronger than when they are first collected. Do the heavy work right the first time, and it will never be a problem later.
3. Get rid of all field soil when collecting, even if it's going back in the ground. I use a hose sprayer on the Jet setting.
4. Hawthorn roots grow early. Mine are quite active in February, even before the buds swell.

 

[brewmeister83]

A few notes:
1. I have never lost a hawthorn when collecting. They are extremely strong.
2. The big roots should be shortened at collection, really shortened. I believe that trees are never stronger than when they are first collected. Do the heavy work right the first time, and it will never be a problem later.
3. Get rid of all field soil when collecting, even if it's going back in the ground. I use a hose sprayer on the Jet setting.
4. Hawthorn roots grow early. Mine are quite active in February, even before the buds swell.

Thanks for the tips Brian, your advice is greatly appreciated. Being from a colder climate though, I was just curious if there was a plant specific "trick" for hawthorn since they're slower root growers and I have less time to get them recovered here in the snowy north. (that and they're the last tree to leaf out up here too, makes the season for working them really short)

Either way I contacted Tony through his site asking whether he had any updates as to this technique he was talking about. I'll let you guys know when I know.

 

[bonsaibp]

If you want to be really safe, in the spring, trench around it, saw it down to a stump, and collect the following spring. As an alternative, you can saw it down, dig it up, bare-root, then plant in the ground for a year to recover, before moving to a pot the second or third year.

A few notes:
1. I have never lost a hawthorn when collecting. They are extremely strong.
2. The big roots should be shortened at collection, really shortened. I believe that trees are never stronger than when they are first collected. Do the heavy work right the first time, and it will never be a problem later.
3. Get rid of all field soil when collecting, even if it's going back in the ground. I use a hose sprayer on the Jet setting.
4. Hawthorn roots grow early. Mine are quite active in February, even before the buds swell.

Why back in the ground instead of a grow box/pot? Something I never really understood.

 

[johng]

its been several years now, but I remember Tickle posting about adding heat to the roots after collection. He did this by adding heating cables to a large grow box (like 4x8') filled with something that reminded me of perlite. He would place the newly collected material in the large box and keep the roots warm. I am not sure if this is the same thing he is referring to in your reference but he was proud of it then.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Why back in the ground instead of a grow box/pot? Something I never really understood.

Don't know why, but d-trees and broadleaf evergreens just seem to respond faster that first year in the ground than in a pot. I've done quite a few side-by-side with hawthorns, ilex, and azaleas, and it just works. Pines and junis are the opposite, those respond far better being tightly constrained in a small pot/box/flat.

 

[Poink88]

2. The big roots should be shortened at collection, really shortened. I believe that trees are never stronger than when they are first collected. Do the heavy work right the first time, and it will never be a problem later.

I strongly agree. I actually stretch it a bit farther and include the top chop.

 

[brewmeister83]

Just got a response back from Tony Tickle about his collection technique. He said he is "about to publish" the method he eluded to on his blog now that he has several years of research to back it up.

He did mention that it also works for all related Rosea plants, so this is good news for us who collect wild malus and prunus as well. Keep your eyes peeled for it in the near future. I can't wait!

 

[Cypress]

Big fan of this thread right now. Planning on collecting up to four hawthorn this year. It's been constantly in the back of my mind, hahaha.

 

[Cypress]

Holy hell, he's got roots popping out all over the trunk... what kind of unnatural experiments is Mr. Tickle performing on these trees?!?!?!

 

[brewmeister83]

Holy hell, he's got roots popping out all over the trunk... what kind of unnatural experiments is Mr. Tickle performing on these trees?!?!?!

Whatever it is, I hope it works just as well on American haws, some of the ones I want to collect have like no roots near the trunk.

 

[garywood]

Kev, VERY short version. 300-200 million years ago Pangea, the super continent, was growing the Rosacea genus. As the continental shift begins so does speciation. It just happens that the primordial genetic predisposition to grow adventitious roots has been passed to most all it's descendants in some degree. It just SO happens that most temperate climate trees begin root growth at about 40-45 degrees in spring, so if bottom heat is possible in very early spring then that would be an advantage. Just food for thought.
Oh Yeah, ground temperature is more stable.

 

[brewmeister83]

Kev, VERY short version. 300-200 million years ago Pangea, the super continent, was growing the Rosacea genus. As the continental shift begins so does speciation. It just happens that the primordial genetic predisposition to grow adventitious roots has been passed to most all it's descendants in some degree. It just SO happens that most temperate climate trees begin root growth at about 40-45 degrees in spring, so if bottom heat is possible in very early spring then that would be an advantage. Just food for thought.
Oh Yeah, ground temperature is more stable.

While I thank you for the brief history lesson, may I respectfully - in all friendliness - point out:

Rosaceae is a family of plants that contain the genus Crataegus, Malus, Prunus, etc...

Rosacea is a skin condition that results in red patches and adult acne on ones face. (I had to look this one up after spell check kicked it back, didn't know such a condition existed)

Speciation started happening once natural selection and evolution started rolling, well before Pangaea decided to split.

While I agree that constant warm temps are conducive to good root growth (I do put all my sensitive or finicky collected material in my cold frame on top of heat mats post collection), hawthorn species up here tend to grow callus tissue and roots at a much slower rate than most any other tree around. Factor that together with a relatively short growing season, and you'll understand why I'm so interested in a technique that causes explosive root growth on Crataegus post collection.

Furthermore, I made the comment about hoping it would work on American Haws, allow me to explain... Even though there may be Hawthorns here, in Europe, and even in Asia, geographic separation and natural selection dictates that each species will have idiosyncrasies in their growth habits that require slightly different approaches to their care. Ask any rose or orchid grower if each specie, hybrid, or cultivar requires the exact same method of culture - the answer will most likely be no. Some may be more sun tolerant, some may be more cold hardy, some may be better root growers than others (why do you think we graft JWP on JBP rootstock?). I'm just trying to figure out what works best for the plants in my area before I come across a really magnificent specimen. My success rate with Hawthorns so far is 66% with my current collection techniques, I'm just looking for another tool to make that number better.

 

[garywood]

Kev, sorry, different frame of reference. Can I plead drunk on the spelling

 

[daygan]

Here's what I see: In April, 2012, Tony wrote about a revolutionary new collection method that he started trying in November, 2011. In February 2012 he had photographs of results, clearly after using this revolutionary method. He also notes that after he saw these results (which was in February), he went on to collect 100 more trees (time not specified). One month after the appearance of the noted results, in March 2012, he wrote about How I Collect Yamadori Hawthorn, with a gallery of images from his last collecting trip. I think it's safe to conclude that this is the trip, or one of the trips taken during the time period that he is referring to wherein he collected 100 trees and used his new collection methods. It looks like at least part (or the crux)of his technique is cutting the tap root.

 

[crust]

Not sure, but I recall seeing an associated Tony pic that showed collected deciduous trees that had been boxed and shoved together in a GH over heat tubes. The the entire container surfaces were covered with a thick mat of live sphagnum. So thick that it came up to the lower branches--like 6-8 inch blanket. Based on the rooting phenomena I saw in other pics this may be part of the key he is referring to.

 

[Cypress]

It looks like at least part (or the crux)of his technique is cutting the tap root.

When would you not cut the tap root when collecting? That's a standard practice with any tree, just so you can even fit it in a box/pot.

Not sure, but I recall seeing an associated Tony pic that showed collected deciduous trees that had been boxed and shoved together in a GH over heat tubes. The the entire container surfaces were covered with a thick mat of live sphagnum. So thick that it came up to the lower branches--like 6-8 inch blanket. Based on the rooting phenomena I saw in other pics this may be part of the key he is referring to.

I'm trying to think of where I read somebody speculating, based on experience, that live sphagnum made trees pop roots like mad. It wasn't on the forum I don't think, either a book or reputable website. But it was referring to one collector that always wraps lives sphagnum around all the roots after collecting, and suggested maybe there's some hormonal influence on the tree... I'll try to figure out where I saw that.

 

[brewmeister83]

Kev, sorry, different frame of reference. Can I plead drunk on the spelling

No worries, happens to the best of us

Just thought it was funny how leaving off one "e" takes it from a group of plants to a skin condition