Reclaimed water

[willhopper]

Where I live in Florida we have the option of using reclaimed water for our yards and landscaping. It’s basically water that is processed from the sewer treatment plants and fertilized. Most use it for their sprinkler systems.

A local nursery reminded us that loropetalum can’t use this reclaimed water or it will kill it.

Is anyone on here familiar with reclaimed water and if there are other species of trees that will be affected by reclaimed water?

 

[willhopper]

Almost 60 views over two days and no replies? Hmmm... I did some research and found out reclaimed water had nitrogen and phosphorous, two of the main ingredients in fertilizers, so we are thinking that watering every day with this may be causing leaf scorch. Fertilizer burn’s No. 1 consequence is brown tips, so we are going to take the troubled trees and use regular tap water. If things turn around I’ll update this thread.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Sorry, reclaimed water as you described is not available in my area.

 

[hemmy]

Where I live in Florida we have the option of using reclaimed water for our yards and landscaping. It’s basically water that is processed from the sewer treatment plants and fertilized. Most use it for their sprinkler systems.

A local nursery reminded us that loropetalum can’t use this reclaimed water or it will kill it.

Is anyone on here familiar with reclaimed water and if there are other species of trees that will be affected by reclaimed water?

I have no experience with it, but I would imagine that it is still has high alkalinity (being Florida) and the presence of extra fertilizer salts doesn’t help those species like loropelatum that prefer an acidic environment. So for other sensitive species, just think ‘acid lovers’, e.g., azaleas. You could also get a few samples a few months apart and have them analyzed to understand the alkalinity/salt content and it’s range.

Below is a plant list from UNF after they had similar problems:
http://southeastgarden.com/reclaimed-water.html

 

[Velodog2]

Yikes. As a self-appointed alkalinity evangelist I would point out that it does not mean high ph, if you are using the term correctly, but rather high carbonate ion concentration which is very detrimental to most if not all plants.

 

[hemmy]

As a self-appointed alkalinity evangelist I would point out that it does not mean high ph,

Lol, dang you got me. I was a little loose on the terminology there, that is usually my peet peeve! But in my experience, ‘acidic’ loving species are more negatively impacted by the presence of carbonates than other species at lower concentrations. I guess it should also be stated that the above linked list are ‘salt sensitive’ plants which may not also have a bearing on their tolerance to alkalinity.

 

[TN_Jim]

Yikes. As a self-appointed alkalinity evangelist I would point out that it does not mean high ph, if you are using the term correctly, but rather high carbonate ion concentration which is very detrimental to most if not all plants.

Can you explain what you just said?
Or better yet, does the carbonate simply increase alkalinity by itself and/or have a separate detrimental effect as a ~salt?

Or rather, does it need to bind with calcium or magnesium to play a negative role in plant fitness?

 

[hemmy]

Or better yet, does the carbonate simply increase alkalinity by itself and/or have a separate detrimental effect as a ~salt?

Or rather, does it need to bind with calcium or magnesium to play a negative role in plant fitness?

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/ph-is-it-relevant.27683/#post-456439

From the above link: As this UF presentation states, highly alkaline water has carbonates and bicarbonates which form salt complexes with Ca, Mg, etc. making these nutrients and other micronutrients unavailable for uptake. Acidifying the water converts some of the bicarbonates.

Highly porous substrates and flushing while watering should mitigate some of this problem.

But azaleas and other 'acid-loving' plants, apparently are less efficient at uptaking minerals making them sensitive to alkaline water which is forming salts that tie up minerals.

 

[Velodog2]

Water chemistry can be quite complex especially when involving carbonate ion states and others may well understand it and the relationship with pH better than I. It involves many equilibrium equations which all interact and are pushed in one direction or the other by many factors. I do however have first hand experience of losing many many trees to water with high alkalinity over the course of years before understanding the severity of the problem, which was finally made apparent by losing over half my collection in one year when we had a months long drought where I had to rely on my very high alkalinity well water exclusively.

 

[Melospiza]

Water chemistry can be quite complex especially when involving carbonate ion states and others may well understand it and the relationship with pH better than I. It involves many equilibrium equations which all interact and are pushed in one direction or the other by many factors. I do however have first hand experience of losing many many trees to water with high alkalinity over the course of years before understanding the severity of the problem, which was finally made apparent by losing over half my collection in one year when we had a months long drought where I had to rely on my very high alkalinity well water exclusively.

I may be misunderstanding your points, but alkalinity in the simplest terms, just means high pH (over 7; acidic solutions have pH below 7). For plants, this just manifests as unavailibility of certain minerals which can dissolve in acidic water but not in alkaline water.

 

[Velodog2]

I may be misunderstanding your points, but alkalinity in the simplest terms, just means high pH (over 7; acidic solutions have pH below 7). For plants, this just manifests as unavailibility of certain minerals which can dissolve in acidic water but not in alkaline water.

Yes you are misunderstanding. You are talking about pH and the quality of being alkaline. The property of alkalinity is different. I couldn’t make it more confusing so I won’t try. Google alkalinity.

 

[Potawatomi13]

I did some research and found out reclaimed water had nitrogen and phosphorous

Hmmm indeed. Why municipality would add nitrogen(or not eliminate)when knowing this is what causes dead zones in Gulf of mexico seems height of irresponsibility.

 

[Melospiza]

Yes you are misunderstanding. You are talking about pH and the quality of being alkaline. The property of alkalinity is different. I couldn’t make it more confusing so I won’t try. Google alkalinity.

I hate to pull out the "I am a chemical engineer" card, but here I am. pH and alkalinity are absolutely related. When the pH of a solution is low, below 7, we say it is acidic. Solutions with a pH around 7 are called neutral. Solutions with pH above 7 are called basic or alkaline. Examples are soda solution and even things like blood and saliva are slightly alkaline. Alkaline water (or soil) is bad for many plants since it prevents the takeup of some minerals that cannot dissolve in it, and therefore the pH needs to be corrected.

 

[Melospiza]

Hmmm indeed. Why municipality would add nitrogen(or not eliminate)when knowing this is what causes dead zones in Gulf of mexico seems height of irresponsibility.

With all respect, this is an impossible request. No one adds nitrogen to wastewater runoff intentionally. We are all at fault here, since we use huge amounts of synthetic fertilizer, containing nitrogen and phosphorus, for our crops and gardens. You can argue that farmers should use less chemical fertilizer, or use organic compost instead, but that will make farming expensive, and mean that your grocery bill will go up significantly.

Rain washes this excess fertilizer into our streams and storm sewers, and eventually to the gulf of Mexico as well as to the reclaimed blackwater this post is talking about. The only way to remove this excess fertlizer is for algae and microbes to break it down. Exactly what happens in the gulf of Mexico, but eventually the algal growth starts to decompose, creating the dead zones you are talking about. You and I are responsible for this, every time we take a bite of food. No point blaming the municipality.

 

[Velodog2]

I hate to pull out the "I am a chemical engineer" card, but here I am. pH and alkalinity are absolutely related. When the pH of a solution is low, below 7, we say it is acidic. Solutions with a pH around 7 are called neutral. Solutions with pH above 7 are called basic or alkaline. Examples are soda solution and even things like blood and saliva are slightly alkaline. Alkaline water (or soil) is bad for many plants since it prevents the takeup of some minerals that cannot dissolve in it, and therefore the pH needs to be corrected.

Lol, I’m a chemical engineer as well. We never learned about alkalinity in school. I think it’s a term used by only certain disciplines. There are specific test kits for it easily found in aquarium stores where the property is closely watched in reef tanks - another place it’s critical. And I believe it’s measured in ppm carbonate.

 

[Solaris]

Yes you are misunderstanding. You are talking about pH and the quality of being alkaline. The property of alkalinity is different. I couldn’t make it more confusing so I won’t try. Google alkalinity.

Are you thinking of the bicarbonate buffer system? 'Cause I've never come across a distinction between pH and alkalinity before, even in chem courses. The only ones I'm turning up are in aquaria (where they talk about total alkalinity versus carbonate alkalinity, which isn't quite the same as what you're saying) or some related-in-name-only gibberish from people selling alkaline diets.

 

[TN_Jim]

I hate to pull out the "I am a chemical engineer" card, but here I am. pH and alkalinity are absolutely related. When the pH of a solution is low, below 7, we say it is acidic. Solutions with a pH around 7 are called neutral. Solutions with pH above 7 are called basic or alkaline. Examples are soda solution and even things like blood and saliva are slightly alkaline. Alkaline water (or soil) is bad for many plants since it prevents the takeup of some minerals that cannot dissolve in it, and therefore the pH needs to be corrected.

That’s a bingo..
So I think you’re saying it’s not really the high ph/alkalinity that kills the azalea directly, but this creates chemical conditions causing mortality due to nutrient deficiencies...as say calcium and magnesium are bound/locked up into hard to break compounds with carbonate/bicarbonate...

.........Algae blooms in the gulf are a completely different ballgame than the service these municipalities are providing...any deeper discussion of the gulf seems a ticket to thread derailed -that’s one hell of a massive complex issue compared to the city providing some of this afformentioned water to the public

 

[Melospiza]

That’s a bingo..
So I think you’re saying it’s not really the high ph/alkalinity that kills the azalea directly, but this creates chemical conditions causing mortality due to nutrient deficiencies...as say calcium and magnesium are bound/locked up into hard to break compounds with carbonate/bicarbonate...

.........Algae blooms in the gulf are a completely different ballgame than the service these municipalities are providing...any deeper discussion of the gulf seems a ticket to thread derailed -that’s one hell of a massive complex issue compared to the city providing some of this afformentioned water to the public

Agree with both your points. Didn't want to get deeper into the agricultural runoff issue; that needs to be a different thread on a different website.

 

[Velodog2]

That’s a bingo..

Lol just appreciate the quote.

 

[TN_Jim]

@Melospiza, thanks for insights and ‘~playing said card’. I wish folks would play their cards more often. I think people often keep their knowledge/skills silent for not wanting to read like some form of boasting or know-it.. when having dedicated a lifelong pursuit of specific knowledge, your not in it for a pat on the back.

Doing so allows us the opportunity to all gain and share the pot, and anyone who thinks doing so is some form of chest pounding is ignorant to the reality that it is the not the educated individual, but rather the incredible vast chest of well established science resounding, and this should be respected and applauded.