Rain Tree Yellow Leaves

[SFDrake]

Hey everyone, I need help with my BRT please. I've had it since October and it seemed to be growing, but recently some leaves have yellowed and fallen off. I have not moved it or changed watering, fertilizer schedule too much, so I'm confused. We recently had a cold frontbdip down here to southeast Florida, and it got down to the upper 40s. Not sure if that might have caused it. It gets good morning sun, then shaded in the afternoon by a huge banyon tree. Have not noticed any pets or Critters, and this is been going on for roughly 4 days. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

[SFDrake]

Its watered daily but might be pot bound, as it is still in its nursury pot. When i water it the water runs right through it almost instantly. Looks like it is in a 2 gallon cut down pot. I very likely might be overwatering it though. The organic soil that it is in isn't much, should I do an emergency repot into bonsai soil so I can see the roots?

 

[SWfloirda]

They will regularly lose old leaves, especially in the winter. Within a few days you’ll probably notice a lot of new growth. Your tree looks healthy. I don’t repot until they are very root bound. If you really feel the need to repot this year wait 3-4 weeks before doing so.

 

[SFDrake]

They will regularly lose old leaves, especially in the winter. Within a few days you’ll probably notice a lot of new growth. Your tree looks healthy. I don’t repot until they are very root bound. If you really feel the need to repot this year wait 3-4 weeks before doing so.

Thanks! I am just trying to get to know the tree, let it get bigger, and learn more before I do anything drastic. Might need to be cut back drastically in the future due to reverse taper

 

[Paradox]

They dont like getting much below 50 F. If its going to be that cold, Id move it inside for the night.
I was told this by someone that grows them down in Florida

 

[SFDrake]

They dont like getting much below 50 F. If its going to be that cold, Id move it inside for the night.
I was told this by someone that grows them down in Florida

I was worried about that, a couple people said it would be fine. Next cold snap little buddy is coming inside.

 

[SFDrake]

I just read a previous comment on here saying rain trees don't like alot of nitrogen. I've been using some generic slow release 18-6-8 I think. Should I switch to a different fertilizer after it starts growing again? Something organic instead of chemical. I also sprayed the foliage wit 20-20-20.

 

[RaginCajun]

I’ve noticed my raintrees drop leaves and slowly grow over the winter. When I have to bring mine inside like now they do fine for the 3-4wks they spend indoors but they don’t grow at all and will drop a good bit of leaves. Soon as it gets hot and humid again it goes nuts. They need water but they don’t like staying wet all the time. If the soil stays wet all the time they will also yellow and drop leaves.

 

[SFDrake]

I’ve noticed my raintrees drop leaves and slowly grow over the winter. When I have to bring mine inside like now they do fine for the 3-4wks they spend indoors but they don’t grow at all and will drop a good bit of leaves. Soon as it gets hot and humid again it goes nuts. They need water but they don’t like staying wet all the time. If the soil stays wet all the time they will also yellow and drop leaves.

Seems to have slowed down quite a bit. I was watering every day, so I might have been overwatering. It's hard to tell though, the water runs right through the pot, not too much soil

 

[BonsaiBlacksmith]

I just read a previous comment on here saying rain trees don't like alot of nitrogen. I've been using some generic slow release 18-6-8 I think. Should I switch to a different fertilizer after it starts growing again? Something organic instead of chemical. I also sprayed the foliage wit 20-20-20.

I agree they don't like nitrogen since they have a symbiotic relationship with a nitrogen fixing bacterium that lives on its root's nodules, a hallmark of the entire Fabaceae Plant Family.

 

[SFDrake]

So if nitrogen is no good, what is a good alternative? Google says bone meal is low in nitrogen, and i think that I read on here that kelp was good as well. What do you guys that have one feed yours?

 

[SWfloirda]

I've been rotating Osmocote and Miracle Grow on my BRTs for 5 years. They are all healthy and suffer no ill effects from the nitrogen.

 

[SFDrake]

I've been rotating Osmocote and Miracle Grow on my BRTs for 5 years. They are all healthy and suffer no ill effects from the nitrogen.

Great thanks! I have the osmocote plus already. Can I substitute the miracle grow with Jacks 20/20/20 that I already have?

 

[BonsaiBlacksmith]

So if nitrogen is no good, what is a good alternative? Google says bone meal is low in nitrogen, and i think that I read on here that kelp was good as well. What do you guys that have one feed yours?

It isn't that Nitrogen isn't good, it isn't needed. Fabaceae family plants are pioneer species, they literally improve the ground they grow in. That does not mean they make everything themselves; I use a mix of composted soil and local clay ridden earth with rocks and sand. (as seen in attached photo) This is the soil of Brazil, my soil. Attached is a photo of a Rain tree planted in ground and one in an air pot, both are equal age, but the air pot had a root pruning. That is why it is behind its sibling in terms of foliage. Im using the same soil mix in ground(locally) and in the air pot. If she flowers add a little pot ash to your water mix if you want strong flower and seed production.

 

[Paradox]

I have been keeping BRT for over 10 years now and I have never ever heard that they dont like nitrogen and none of the reputable bonsai care sites say anything about them not liking nitrogen.
In fact, if anything, I have heard, seen and experienced the exact opposite. Ive also repotted mine several times and not ever seen a nitrogen fixing nodule on their roots, and I have looked because they are in the legume family. Not all legumes fix nitrogen and I havent seen definitive information anywhere that BRT do, but they might so I wont rule it out. FWIW, they dont make seed pods like many other legumes either but they are still legumes.

There is a gorgeous BRT bonsai owned by Lou Carreiro that he pays NEBG to overwinter for him and he has done workshops on their care at NEBG.
His tree won awards at the National Show when it was presented there. He doesnt say anything about them hating nitrogen.

Lou Carreiro is a bonsai expert who has led workshops on the Brazilian Rain Tree, Pithecellobium tortum, at New England Bonsai Gardens.

What is the Brazilian Rain Tree?

• The Brazilian Rain Tree is a tropical hardwood tree native to Brazil's rainforests.
  
  
• It has delicate branches and compound leaves with tiny light-green leaflets.
  
  
• The leaves fold up at night and in subdued light and unfold in the morning light.
  
  
• It has attractive flowers that appear as fragrant white puffy blossoms.

How to care for a Brazilian Rain Tree bonsai?

• It likes full or partial sun and moderate water and fertilizer.
• It loves water but doesn't like to have soggy feet.
• It loves fertilizer lots and lots of fertilizer.
• It doesn't like wire.
• It should be kept away from freezing temperatures.

Ive also ever hesitated to feed mine year round and never had anything but lots of growth out of them which is not the response you would suspect if they hated nitrogen
So I dont know where this came from but I dont believe its true.

Brazilian Rain Tree Bonsai – Care Manual – Elandan Gardens

www.elandangardens.com

Care guide for the Brazilian rain tree (Pithecellobium tortum) - Bonsai Empire

Brazilian rain tree Bonsai Care guidelines Placement The Brazilian Rain Tree can be kept indoors but needs a lot of light. It prefers a sunny place outside duri...

www.bonsaiempire.com

Wigerts: grows them for sale as bonsai

Brazilian Raintree – Wigert’s Bonsai

 

[SFDrake]

I have been keeping BRT for over 10 years now and I have never ever heard that they dont like nitrogen and none of the reputable bonsai care sites say anything about them not liking nitrogen.
In fact, if anything, I have heard, seen and experienced the exact opposite. Ive also repotted mine several times and not ever seen a nitrogen fixing nodule on their roots, and I have looked because they are in the legume family. Not all legumes fix nitrogen and I havent seen definitive information anywhere that BRT do, but they might so I wont rule it out. FWIW, they dont make seed pods like many other legumes either but they are still legumes.

There is a gorgeous BRT bonsai owned by Lou Carreiro that he pays NEBG to overwinter for him and he has done workshops on their care at NEBG.
His tree won awards at the National Show when it was presented there. He doesnt say anything about them hating nitrogen.

View attachment 580479



Ive also ever hesitated to feed mine year round and never had anything but lots of growth out of them which is not the response you would suspect if they hated nitrogen
So I dont know where this came from but I dont believe its true.

Brazilian Rain Tree Bonsai – Care Manual – Elandan Gardens

www.elandangardens.com

Care guide for the Brazilian rain tree (Pithecellobium tortum) - Bonsai Empire

Brazilian rain tree Bonsai Care guidelines Placement The Brazilian Rain Tree can be kept indoors but needs a lot of light. It prefers a sunny place outside duri...

www.bonsaiempire.com

Wigerts: grows them for sale as bonsai

Brazilian Raintree – Wigert’s Bonsai

Thanks so much for the advice. I think I'm going to keep with the liquid fertilizer once a month for now.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Fabaceae family plants are pioneer species, they literally improve the ground they grow in.

Just to restate this so people understand - the family "Fabaceae" is more often referred to by the common name "Legume". Almost all legumes are nitrogen-fixers. If the tree you own reproduces with a seed pod - like a bean - it is likely that it is a member of this family. It includes Brazillian Rain Trees, Texas Ebony, Mesquite, Mimosa, Acacia, Indigo, Honey Locust and Redbud, just to name the ones off the top of my head.

A nitrogen-fixing tree does not need nitrogen fertilizer - they host symbiotic bacteria that pull nitrogen from the air (more than 75% of the air around you is nitrogen gas in the form of N2). They are typically pioneer species that can grow in extremely poor soil where other plants would struggle to survive - and they improve the soil around them. If you are familiar with crop rotation and how corn farmers rotate their crops every several years with soybeans, that is nitrogen fixing on a commercial scale.

 

[BonsaiBlacksmith]

I have been keeping BRT for over 10 years now and I have never ever heard that they dont like nitrogen and none of the reputable bonsai care sites say anything about them not liking nitrogen.
In fact, if anything, I have heard, seen and experienced the exact opposite. Ive also repotted mine several times and not ever seen a nitrogen fixing nodule on their roots, and I have looked because they are in the legume family. Not all legumes fix nitrogen and I havent seen definitive information anywhere that BRT do, but they might so I wont rule it out. FWIW, they dont make seed pods like many other legumes either but they are still legumes.

There is a gorgeous BRT bonsai owned by Lou Carreiro that he pays NEBG to overwinter for him and he has done workshops on their care at NEBG.
His tree won awards at the National Show when it was presented there. He doesnt say anything about them hating nitrogen.

View attachment 580479



Ive also ever hesitated to feed mine year round and never had anything but lots of growth out of them which is not the response you would suspect if they hated nitrogen
So I dont know where this came from but I dont believe its true.

Brazilian Rain Tree Bonsai – Care Manual – Elandan Gardens

www.elandangardens.com

Care guide for the Brazilian rain tree (Pithecellobium tortum) - Bonsai Empire

Brazilian rain tree Bonsai Care guidelines Placement The Brazilian Rain Tree can be kept indoors but needs a lot of light. It prefers a sunny place outside duri...

www.bonsaiempire.com

Wigerts: grows them for sale as bonsai

Brazilian Raintree – Wigert’s Bonsai

Awesome resources thanks for sharing! I can answer why you don't see nodules, because you are feeding the plant fertilizer on the regular, dissuading the bacteria from establishing that bond, also in some cases you really need to introduce the bacteria, if you have a clean environment or re pot annually you are preventing that symbiotic bond from happening. I grow mainly Fabaceae Trees, and all of them, given the chance, will fix nitrogen, that's how we get two World Class Rain Forests in Poor Soil here in Brasil.

 

[SFDrake]

Just to restate this so people understand - the family "Fabaceae" is more often referred to by the common name "Legume". Almost all legumes are nitrogen-fixers. If the tree you own reproduces with a seed pod - like a bean - it is likely that it is a member of this family. It includes Brazillian Rain Trees, Texas Ebony, Mesquite, Mimosa, Acacia, Indigo, Honey Locust and Redbud, just to name the ones off the top of my head.

A nitrogen-fixing tree does not need nitrogen fertilizer - they host symbiotic bacteria that pull nitrogen from the air (more than 75% of the air around you is nitrogen gas in the form of N2). They are typically pioneer species that can grow in extremely poor soil where other plants would struggle to survive - and they improve the soil around them. If you are familiar with crop rotation and how corn farmers rotate their crops every several years with soybeans, that is nitrogen fixing on a commercial scale.

Thank you so much for the information. I'm learning so much about this tree from you guys. I'll keep updating

 

[BonsaiBlacksmith]

I have been keeping BRT for over 10 years now and I have never ever heard that they dont like nitrogen and none of the reputable bonsai care sites say anything about them not liking nitrogen.
In fact, if anything, I have heard, seen and experienced the exact opposite. Ive also repotted mine several times and not ever seen a nitrogen fixing nodule on their roots, and I have looked because they are in the legume family. Not all legumes fix nitrogen and I havent seen definitive information anywhere that BRT do, but they might so I wont rule it out. FWIW, they dont make seed pods like many other legumes either but they are still legumes.

There is a gorgeous BRT bonsai owned by Lou Carreiro that he pays NEBG to overwinter for him and he has done workshops on their care at NEBG.
His tree won awards at the National Show when it was presented there. He doesnt say anything about them hating nitrogen.

View attachment 580479



Ive also ever hesitated to feed mine year round and never had anything but lots of growth out of them which is not the response you would suspect if they hated nitrogen
So I dont know where this came from but I dont believe its true.

Brazilian Rain Tree Bonsai – Care Manual – Elandan Gardens

www.elandangardens.com

Care guide for the Brazilian rain tree (Pithecellobium tortum) - Bonsai Empire

Brazilian rain tree Bonsai Care guidelines Placement The Brazilian Rain Tree can be kept indoors but needs a lot of light. It prefers a sunny place outside duri...

www.bonsaiempire.com

Wigerts: grows them for sale as bonsai

Brazilian Raintree – Wigert’s Bonsai

Here is a good reference to use when thinking about Fabaceae Trees and Nitrogen Fixation.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6305480/

Important take away:
"Leguminosae (Fabaceae) is the third largest family of angiosperms with 750 genera and around 19,500 species (The Legume Phylogeny Working Group, 2013). Most legumes can establish a mutualistic association with alpha- and beta-proteobacteria to obtain biological nitrogen (reviewed by Andrews and Andrews, 2017; Sprent et al., 2017). Rhizobia are soil bacteria known for being able to establish symbiosis with legume plants. Symbiotic nitrogen fixation (SNF) can be carried out once rhizobia are established inside the cells of root nodules formed from newly differentiated tissue in the roots of host plants. The host plant provides the microsymbiont with dicarboxylates together with other nutrients, in exchange for fixed nitrogen in the form of ammonium and amino acids (Udvardi and Day, 1997). Nitrogen-fixing legumes contribute to nitrogen enrichment of the soil and therefore are valuable in improving soil fertility. "