Question on # of Buds for Double-Flush Pines

[Apex37]

I’ve been reading through Julian Adams’ book ‘Growing Pine for Bonsai’. Regarding double-flush pines, he mentions that they should be reduced to only a single bud before candle extension in spring: “Each terminal of the two flush pines should have a single bud at the terminal end, energy balancing is achieved by removing all but one bud on each terminal.”

This was interesting to me as I was always been told to leave two buds and even Eric covers that here: https://www.bonsaify.com/blogs/news...ese-black-pine-bonsai-across-their-life-cycle
I could totally be misreading this as it says, “In September or October (early fall) remove all but the center bud and one side bud.”

So is that saying one on the terminal and one more off to the side? I guess this has never been very clear to me. I can take a picture of my JBP here shortly to get some visual representation.

I’m assuming I can do this bud selection at any point during the winter, correct?
Also, would this be the best time to do major bending to branches?

 

[MaciekA]

There is only one case in which I reduce any terminal structure to a singleton, and that is with a sacrificial leader whose tip I want to continue extending out as a mono-shoot. I don't do this reduction when that sacrificial leader is a bud either, I do it when it's a mature shoot (needles, etc) which along with its whorl sibling shoots has remained untouched until late fall -- or even the following year at some point. By then, they've at least paid back into the system.

I never reduce / select / pluck buds when they're still buds (unopened) in any pine species unless dealing with special situations where dialing back density is needed to reduce extreme cluttering (i.e. dwarf cultivars sometimes that will put over a dozen buds in a square inch, etc). If however you want to down-select mature shoots (i.e. not next year's buds but this year's shoots that already have needles), then you can select them down to 2 at this time of year or later (for future readers: late fall / early winter).

I disagree with Julian's "removing all but one bud" advice and agree with Eric's teaching. This is consistent with my pine studies with Michael Hagedorn.

 

[River's Edge]

Regarding double-flush pines, he mentions that they should be reduced to only a single bud before candle extension in spring: “Each terminal of the two flush pines should have a single bud at the terminal end, energy balancing is achieved by removing all but one bud on each terminal.”

I suspect s misreading or misinterpretation of Julians text, but I do not have it to confirm that aspect.

This statement is true if the intent is to promote extension of an apical leader or sacrifice branch. With the intent to thicken a branch or trunk. It balances the energy for that purpose. It would have the effect of creating the same type of growth for each terminal treated in that manner. Normally the single bud retained is the stronger central bud.
So a true statement when describing one aspect of developing pine.

Leaving two buds is a general rule when the intent is to begin bifurcation, moving from primary branching to secondary branching and so forth. Once again this is usually when one has met initial goals of proportional thickness in the first section of the branch.

I find it is a rare occurrence that all branches or shoots receive the same treatment during development. The best example I can think of where that occurs is in refinement when one decandles two flush pine. Even then weak buds or shoots are often not decandled. So at best the majority may receive the same treatment.

I would suggest that you are describing two correct methods for achieving separate developmental goals. I do not see them as contradictory, simply separate parts of the developmental sequence. I do not have the book you have mentioned or I would check it out further. perhaps these comments will help.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

If you're going to cut it back anyways, I get why you'd want just one bud to develop. Save the energy for the second flush.
Cutting back two young shoots creates a congestion of buds after a candle cut, with just one candle it becomes managable.

 

[SeanS]

The way I read it is that he’s referring to the new spring buds at the end of a shoot from the previous season (from previous season’s decandling). Like @Wires_Guy_wires says you’re going to be cutting that new shoot that grows from that single bud he’s advocating to leave off when you decandle, and will get multiple buds from that cut point. I don’t think Julian meant cut the shoots from the previous season back to a single, those are the ones that would be bifurcated already from the previous cut site. You would have already selected and cut those back to 2 in the previous fall. I believe he’s referring to the actual buds at the ends of those shoots, not the shoots themselves

 

[Apex37]

I think I might have confused some folks here. Apologies, I’m just having a really hard time wrapping my brain around things. I’m going to attach photos from the book. I’d like to mention this section is solely for refinement.




If I’m understanding correctly he’s talking about the buds that are currently set right now and reducing those to 1 during dormancy. Or that’s how I understand it. Upon candle extension, pinching the spring growth as Jonas talks about here: https://bonsaitonight.com/2015/03/31/pinching-spring-candles-on-black-pine/.

 

[SeanS]

I think I might have confused some folks here. Apologies, I’m just having a really hard time wrapping my brain around things. I’m going to attach photos from the book. I’d like to mention this section is solely for refinement.

View attachment 519232
View attachment 519233

If I’m understanding correctly he’s talking about the buds that are currently set right now and reducing those to 1 during dormancy. Or that’s how I understand it. Upon candle extension, pinching the spring growth as Jonas talks about here: https://bonsaitonight.com/2015/03/31/pinching-spring-candles-on-black-pine/.

Seems like what I duplicated in my crude drawing. He’s referring to the new terminal buds (the ones you’ll be cutting off during decandling), not the summer shoots they’re attached to which you’d have reduced to 2s in fall.

 

[Paradox]

I never reduce / select / pluck buds when they're still buds (unopened) in any pine species unless dealing with special situations where dialing back density is needed to reduce extreme cluttering (i.e. dwarf cultivars sometimes that will put over a dozen buds in a square inch, etc). If however you want to down-select mature shoots (i.e. not next year's buds but this year's shoots that already have needles), then you can select them down to 2 at this time of year or later (for future readers: late fall / early winter).

I disagree with Julian's "removing all but one bud" advice and agree with Eric's teaching. This is consistent with my pine studies with Michael Hagedorn.

I have reduced next years buds to two on the tips of every one of my 5 different species of pines in the fall every year with no problem.

This is consistent with my teacher(s) who studied with Boon.

 

[Paradox]

If I’m understanding correctly he’s talking about the buds that are currently set right now and reducing those to 1 during dormancy. Or that’s how I understand it. Upon candle extension, pinching the spring growth as Jonas talks about here: https://bonsaitonight.com/2015/03/31/pinching-spring-candles-on-black-pine/.

Dont feel bad, a lot of new people get confuzzled over this.
Yes he means in the fall, reduce to one. That is the new bud that will extend next year. Some of us leave 2, depending on what we want to achieve the next year.
You are most likely going to cut off that shoot in the end of June/early July anyway to get a second flush.
I always reduce the second flush buds to 2 per shoot as well. You dont want more than that as it can get crowded.

What Jonas is talking about is energy balance of a young very vigorous pine that he is developing for shohin (small) pine.
He is pinching the candles in half to reduce vigor. You dont always do that. Only if its a very strong bud that you want to slow down. Again most likely you are going to cut the shoot off anyway so it might not be necessary to pinch it. You might pinch the second flush if its also very vigorous and could cause issues with long internodes.

Like a lot of things in bonsai, it depends on what you are trying to do

 

[Apex37]

Okay, thank you everyone for your insight!
So, reduce the spring buds (the ones currently set) to one, or two, depending on if I want bifurcation for the first flush. Let that extend. If working with a very vigorous pine/pine I’m wanting to keep smaller, pinch in spring as candles extend. Around end of June/early July decandle and pull old needles where needed. Then wait for new shoots to appear, pick the two best ones and then reduce to two. Let it grow. Rinse and repeat.

That all sound about right?