Problems with my collected Engelmann Spruce

[August44]

I have collected Engelmann spruce up in the Mts next to me for 4-5 years with very little to know problems and great recovery from collection. This spring after taking them out different shelters I noticed that a lot of the older needles up and down the trees were discolored...they were kind of a gray/brown, and some were falling off. I and a bonsai friend have done some research on this and come up with about nothing that is a positive ID. If you google pests that bother spruce, mites are one of the things that comes up and the damage they do looks like my spruce, but I have done the tap test and run a 30 power handheld loop over branches etc and see no mites dead or alive. The needles are not reddish or yellow like dead or dying needles, but they are discolored as mentioned above. I am fearful of fungus, like one of those you can't cure. Some of these trees I have had for 4 years and are just getting in shape and I would hate to loose them. I do have 3-4 that look great and I will picture several of them for comparison to the affected ones.

I should mention that I had trees stored in a large cold frame, some other stored in my bonsai shed that does not get below freezing and has a fan, and several other small groups stored up against the house with a blue plastic tarp around them. Can't remember what plants were where but very suspicious of the tarped ones. They all have nice growth this year with nothing looking bad there. Two that did not have the problem are at the end.

I have sprayed for bugs and used a fungicide several times. I know a lot of folks collect these spruce and might have an answer for me. Any ideas or suggestions are certainly appreciated. Thank you. August

 

[Vance Wood]

It could be an issue with watering and or exposure. Spruce do not like direct sun with dry soil, they will tolerate one or the other but not both.

 

[August44]

It could be an issue with watering and or exposure. Spruce do not like direct sun with dry soil, they will tolerate one or the other but not both.

They came out of storage with this problem and they were watered well during the winter. They were not at all in direct sun during the winter.

 

[River's Edge]

They came out of storage with this problem and they were watered well during the winter. They were not at all in direct sun during the winter.

Lots of variables at play! Difference in times collected and root recovery for example. The key is the new foliage looks healthy. With proper car and continuing improvement in health they will back bud readily. Thus the future is not overly affected. I would suspect drying out over the winter in the root ball!
best approach is careful care and daily routine to improve health and focus on development leading to refinement.

 

[August44]

Lots of variables at play! Difference in times collected and root recovery for example. The key is the new foliage looks healthy. With proper car and continuing improvement in health they will back bud readily. Thus the future is not overly affected. I would suspect drying out over the winter in the root ball!
best approach is careful care and daily routine to improve health and focus on development leading to refinement.

Hi Frank and thanks for kicking in. The trees affected were collected 2-4 years ago, no problem with them last year and loaded with buds this spring. Have you ever seen fungus on spruce that looks like this?

 

[River's Edge]

Hi Frank and thanks for kicking in. The trees affected were collected 2-4 years ago, no problem with them last year and loaded with buds this spring. Have you ever seen fungus on spruce that looks like this?

No the fungal issues do not look like that. It appears to be a winter injury caused by drying out over the winter. You can check closely for fungal issues by looking at the old needles for black fruiting bodies, or checking the trunk portions for white exuding material. the other key to fungal issues is a branch dying off as opposed to a few needles.
I consider the old needles turning greyish and dry more of the result from drying out in the wind or lack of watering over the winter period. Conifers continue to photosynthesize throughout the winter and require water available throughout. Not the complete dormancy that we often suspect could occur.
Just my opinion, perhaps some more scientific types may pitch in on the discussion.

 

[NaoTK]

On the west side of the cascades I have a lot of success leaving collected trees out in the elements, but on a heat mat. It still freezes out hear and the pot freezes and the trees are rained on all winter. If I try to baby the trees by putting in a cold frame they never do as well and sometimes look like your pics. Something about the constant rain is helpful I think. I know its colder in NE Oregon.

 

[August44]

On the west side of the cascades I have a lot of success leaving collected trees out in the elements, but on a heat mat. It still freezes out hear and the pot freezes and the trees are rained on all winter. If I try to baby the trees by putting in a cold frame they never do as well and sometimes look like your pics. Something about the constant rain is helpful I think. I know its colder in NE Oregon.

Hi Nao and thanks for the input. I am in a zone 5-6 and 3465' where I live. Weather temps and the wind can be killers over here. I put a few maples and other trees that can't handle the severe winters we get in the cold frame on heat that is regulated with thermostat @ 36F. I also protect trees that have been collected in the fall before the winter to protect the roots. I am trying to engage my memory as to what trees went where this last winter and I seem to remember that these spruce, along with some pines, were outside against the house with a blue tarp secured to the house and over/around them. Everything was checked and watered if needed throughout the winter. The trees in the cold frame and the shed came out in excellent condition, nice and green and buds waiting to burst. I believe the ones (spruce not pines) under tarps are the trees with the problems. I don't know what the problem is or why, but I will not store trees with tarps over them again. Thanks!

PS: We have about no rain here in the winter, just snow.

 

[0soyoung]

IMHO, you are right, if it's the tarps. The (deep) interior foliage of Sitka and of blue spruce turns a similar ugly color. I think this is just the forest step toward shedding them because they didn't get enough light for a period of time.

Subalpine trees load up on xanthophylls in winter to cope with sunshine when it is too cold to photosynthesize effectively. Generally this means the needles get a bit yellowish in winter, but it isn't always noticeable. Regardless, the point is that these species don't need protection from the sun. I think this experience may show that continual darkness in winter can trigger the I'm-in-too-much-shade' response.




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