Please help me identify this Juniper!

[Flbonsai23]

 

[Flbonsai23]

Is the twisting trunk natural or made that way? Please can anyone identify this Juniper?

 

[Shibui]

Many junipers look superficially similar so it can be difficult to give accurate ID from pics.
My guess is J. chinensis.
They usually grow quite straight (see the younger branches) so young plants are wired and twisted or bent so when it grows and thickens the trunk has interesting bends and twists like this.

 

[Flbonsai23]

Thanks for the response! Do you think it is Itoigawa ?

 

[Flbonsai23]

Thanks for the response

Many junipers look superficially similar so it can be difficult to give accurate ID from pics.
My guess is J. chinensis.
They usually grow quite straight (see the younger branches) so young plants are wired and twisted or bent so when it grows and thickens the trunk has interesting bends and twists like this.

! Think it’s Itoigawa ?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

What more can you tell us about it? Where did it come from, etc.? From photos it’s really tough to tell. since the trunk looks twisted, I’m assuming this came from a bonsai nursery and not just a landscape nursery...?

 

[Flbonsai23]

What more can you tell us about it? Where did it come from, etc.? From photos it’s really tough to tell. since the trunk looks twisted, I’m assuming this came from a bonsai nursery and not just a landscape nursery...?

I got it from a really big commercial bonsai place. Apparently it’s an Itoigawa, but they had sent me the wrong tree species previously which is why I am hesitant to believe what they say.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Which nursery?

Really, the trunk looks like it could have been done by the Ishii’s, and they graft to San Jose juniper. That would explain the bark, and I’ve seen some of the Ishii’s trees offered for sale at a few of the online nurseries, like NEBG and Bonsai Outlet. The foliage looks somewhat like Itoigawa, but is really loose. I’m also a bit thrown by the green stems of the new growth; my Itoigawa junipers don’t grow those green new stems. For comparison, here are a few Itoigawa runners. The new stems are brown, and the growth is much tighter.

I’m wondering if yours is actually a Kiyozuro. These are a strain of Itoigawa that I can only trace back to the Ishii’s Chikugo-en nursery, and even visited there last year to learn history and buy one from Gary Ishii. He really didn’t know where his father obtained the cultivar, so right now it’s still a mystery to me. Here are a couple shots of my Kiyozuro for comparison. If that’s what they sent you, then you have a rare tree...though so far, I’m not convinced the foliage or growth rate are as good as Itoigawa.

 

[Flbonsai23]

Thanks so much for the photos and helping me out!

Which nursery?

Really, the trunk looks like it could have been done by the Ishii’s, and they graft to San Jose juniper. That would explain the bark, and I’ve seen some of the Ishii’s trees offered for sale at a few of the online nurseries, like NEBG and Bonsai Outlet. The foliage looks somewhat like Itoigawa, but is really loose. I’m also a bit thrown by the green stems of the new growth; my Itoigawa junipers don’t grow those green new stems. For comparison, here are a few Itoigawa runners. The new stems are brown, and the growth is much tighter.
View attachment 315046View attachment 315047View attachment 315048
I’m wondering if yours is actually a Kiyozuro. These are a strain of Itoigawa that I can only trace back to the Ishii’s Chikugo-en nursery, and even visited there last year to learn history and buy one from Gary Ishii. He really didn’t know where his father obtained the cultivar, so right now it’s still a mystery to me. Here are a couple shots of my Kiyozuro for comparison. If that’s what they sent you, then you have a rare tree...though so far, I’m not convinced the foliage or growth rate are as good as Itoigawa.
View attachment 315049View attachment 315050

I really appreciate the help! I was told by a local bonsai expert that it is a torulosa (hollywood juniper). I have been getting lots of different answers so I’m really curious what it actually is. Bonsai outlet claims its Itoigawa, but I’m not sure. Any additional thoughts ?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Bonsai outlet claims its Itoigawa, but I’m not sure. Any additional thoughts ?

Ask Bonsai Outlet if it came from Chikugo-en originally. If it did, I’d bet money on Kiyozuro. It’s not dense enough to be torulosa, and I’m really not aware of any bonsai nurseries that grow them...though I think they’re worth exploring because they trunk up so fast.

 

[Flbonsai23]

Thanks so much for the photos and helping me out!

Which nursery?

Really, the trunk looks like it could have been done by the Ishii’s, and they graft to San Jose juniper. That would explain the bark, and I’ve seen some of the Ishii’s trees offered for sale at a few of the online nurseries, like NEBG and Bonsai Outlet. The foliage looks somewhat like Itoigawa, but is really loose. I’m also a bit thrown by the green stems of the new growth; my Itoigawa junipers don’t grow those green new stems. For comparison, here are a few Itoigawa runners. The new stems are brown, and the growth is much tighter.
View attachment 315046View attachment 315047View attachment 315048
I’m wondering if yours is actually a Kiyozuro. These are a strain of Itoigawa that I can only trace back to the Ishii’s Chikugo-en nursery, and even visited there last year to learn history and buy one from Gary Ishii. He really didn’t know where his father obtained the cultivar, so right now it’s still a mystery to me. Here are a couple shots of my Kiyozuro for comparison. If that’s what they sent you, then you have a rare tree...though so far, I’m not convinced the foliage or growth rate are as good as Itoigawa.
View attachment 315049View attachment 315050

I really appreciate the help!

 

[Flbonsai23]

Ask Bonsai Outlet if it came from Chikugo-en originally. If it did, I’d bet money on Kiyozuro. It’s not dense enough to be torulosa, and I’m really not aware of any bonsai nurseries that grow them...though I think they’re worth exploring because they trunk up so fast.

I asked bonsai outlet and they said it was from Hollow Creek bonsai in Rochester. He claims it’s Shimpaku.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I asked bonsai outlet and they said it was from Hollow Creek bonsai in Rochester. He claims it’s Shimpaku.

I’m still thinking Kiyozuro...
@LanceMac10 has one from NEBG too.

 

[Flbonsai23]

I’m still thinking Kiyozuro...
@LanceMac10 has one from NEBG too.

It is definitely possible, thank you

 

[LanceMac10]

BonsaiOutlet bought NEBG when Teddi and Hitoshi retired a few years ago. They've continued to by from the Ishii's and I believe that relationship continues with NEBG.
BonsaiOutlet bought all of HollowCreeks stock last year, I believe. If it came from HollowCreek, it's probably been sitting in their yard more than a minute. Maybe that and the fact that it most likely was re-potted fairly recently at NEBG might explain why it's growth pattern currently might hinder identification?

Just to confuse, here is the tag from mine...

I do know mine is on San Jose. Was described as looser in habit with color lighter than other Shimpaku. That's really all I can offer. At least it was/is among the last batch of material grafted by Ishii-san. At least that's how I remember it.

That's why I saved the tag and the price was pretty low, for around here, but at least $50-75 more than it should have been. A little provenance helps in case of re-sell.....!!!

I've got a small Kishu I consider superior in growth habit to Kiyozuru. I let the Kiyo' get away from me some, but not near the neglect in the OP. But it looks like a fresh re-pot.
The pot it's in say's it probably came from Hollowcreek in that pot, got a proper re-pot and got put back in the same pot.

@Brian Van Fleet is quite accomplished with Juniper, so it's not like there isn't some study and real world experience with many different varieties. I'm trying to do the same and it seems most will react similarly. But yes, it does tickle a bit if your not really sure what exactly you have!


Let it live outside for awhile, maybe the new growth will show better......where ever your are.....

 

[Flbonsai23]

BonsaiOutlet bought NEBG when Teddi and Hitoshi retired a few years ago. They've continued to by from the Ishii's and I believe that relationship continues with NEBG.
BonsaiOutlet bought all of HollowCreeks stock last year, I believe. If it came from HollowCreek, it's probably been sitting in their yard more than a minute. Maybe that and the fact that it most likely was re-potted fairly recently at NEBG might explain why it's growth pattern currently might hinder identification?

Just to confuse, here is the tag from mine...View attachment 315099

I do know mine is on San Jose. Was described as looser in habit with color lighter than other Shimpaku. That's really all I can offer. At least it was/is among the last batch of material grafted by Ishii-san. At least that's how I remember it.

That's why I saved the tag and the price was pretty low, for around here, but at least $50-75 more than it should have been. A little provenance helps in case of re-sell.....!!!

I've got a small Kishu I consider superior in growth habit to Kiyozuru. I let the Kiyo' get away from me some, but not near the neglect in the OP. But it looks like a fresh re-pot.
The pot it's in say's it probably came from Hollowcreek in that pot, got a proper re-pot and got put back in the same pot.

@Brian Van Fleet is quite accomplished with Juniper, so it's not like there isn't some study and real world experience with many different varieties. I'm trying to do the same and it seems most will react similarly. But yes, it does tickle a bit if your not really sure what exactly you have!


Let it live outside for awhile, maybe the new growth will show better......where ever your are.....

Funny you mentioned that, I repotted it about a month ago. It came in terrible condition from bonsai outlet. And yes! I had the same thing happen to me, I was told I severely overpaid for the tree. Bonsai outlet is pretty sketchy. Yeah I will keep watching to see if it gets better lol