JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
I know that the tree should always lean toward the viewer. Is there ever a case in which this rule can be successfully broken? If you have examples of something that works, I'd like to see it...
Planting angle question
- Thread starter JudyB
- Start date
Hey Judy, I do think this rule can be broken in a couple of situations.
First, formal upright, group plantings, clumps...not all trunks are going to lean toward the viewer. But, I don't think this what you were really asking about...
Second, in my largest bald cypress(4' or better), that have been trained in a flat-top style, I do not lean the trunks...or if I do, it is very little as the length of the trunk exaggerates even the slightest lean forward.
Lastly, I also think it can be used successfully in trees that our purposefully designed to be viewed from all sides. Doesn't have to be, but this certainly could be a strategy to employ.
John
First, formal upright, group plantings, clumps...not all trunks are going to lean toward the viewer. But, I don't think this what you were really asking about...
Second, in my largest bald cypress(4' or better), that have been trained in a flat-top style, I do not lean the trunks...or if I do, it is very little as the length of the trunk exaggerates even the slightest lean forward.
Lastly, I also think it can be used successfully in trees that our purposefully designed to be viewed from all sides. Doesn't have to be, but this certainly could be a strategy to employ.
John
JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
SG, I understand the reasons well for adhearing to this rule, but am looking for possible exceptions.
Thanks john, for laying out some reasoning.
I'm asking, because I have a tree that is very strong from a side that leans away. The other side is good, but the wild heart of the tree is on the away side. I can make the tree from the toward side, but it will be more of a standard tree, and less to the power of what the tree can offer from the away side.
Thanks john, for laying out some reasoning.
I'm asking, because I have a tree that is very strong from a side that leans away. The other side is good, but the wild heart of the tree is on the away side. I can make the tree from the toward side, but it will be more of a standard tree, and less to the power of what the tree can offer from the away side.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Judy, Is it still a viable front if you tilt it forward a bit?
I was watching Rodney Clemons' MABA critique, and he talks about planting angle on a nice tree at 13:20. Check it out:
http://ofbonsai.org/galleries/videos/rodney-clemons-tree-critique-mid-america-bonsai-show-fall-2014
I was watching Rodney Clemons' MABA critique, and he talks about planting angle on a nice tree at 13:20. Check it out:
http://ofbonsai.org/galleries/videos/rodney-clemons-tree-critique-mid-america-bonsai-show-fall-2014
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Smoke
Ignore-Amus
I guess it really depends on who your tryin to please....the forum or you?
Hi my friend,
its funny but more and more I notice the weakness in a tree design if it is leaning back or reaching back. If it's just straight upright it does not bother me much but if its a dynamic tree and its apex rears back It really affects me and I immediately mentally try to resolve it somehow or look for a ways to--this being said, I have had collected trees that fall away and that side remains the best front despite because of features or the base, I have just shifting the upper apex forward has help to diminish the falling away affect--at least I think so.
its funny but more and more I notice the weakness in a tree design if it is leaning back or reaching back. If it's just straight upright it does not bother me much but if its a dynamic tree and its apex rears back It really affects me and I immediately mentally try to resolve it somehow or look for a ways to--this being said, I have had collected trees that fall away and that side remains the best front despite because of features or the base, I have just shifting the upper apex forward has help to diminish the falling away affect--at least I think so.
JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
The tree is currently at such a severe angle, I will be lucky to correct it by about 1/2 of what it is, and even at that point, it would lean away quite a bit. So I do not think that I will get there with replanting all the way. That is why the question, and maybe Crust has the straightforward answer. It might always read as a flaw.
Thanks for the critique link, it's always amazing to see how people think. And nice trees to look at as well.
@smoke, I want to please the tree, by doing right by it. It's a very nice piece, and I have no wish to ruin it by committing an error that will stain it's future.
Thanks for the critique link, it's always amazing to see how people think. And nice trees to look at as well.
@smoke, I want to please the tree, by doing right by it. It's a very nice piece, and I have no wish to ruin it by committing an error that will stain it's future.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Judy, why don't you post some pics here, that might help.
I can't offer any examples of "great" bonsai (though that is a subjective term for sure) that lean away dramatically, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. And as someone else said, ultimately you need to do what seems or feels right to you (unless maybe your sole goal is to get trees into certain exhibitions). That's one of the take home messages I'm getting from my participation in forums and bonsai groups on facebook. I'm becoming less concerned with what others have to say about how trees should look and focusing more on what looks good to me.
Good luck, would love to see what tree has you so puzzled!
Chris
I can't offer any examples of "great" bonsai (though that is a subjective term for sure) that lean away dramatically, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. And as someone else said, ultimately you need to do what seems or feels right to you (unless maybe your sole goal is to get trees into certain exhibitions). That's one of the take home messages I'm getting from my participation in forums and bonsai groups on facebook. I'm becoming less concerned with what others have to say about how trees should look and focusing more on what looks good to me.
Good luck, would love to see what tree has you so puzzled!
Chris
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
What I find sad is...that it's strongest feature...falls into a breaking the rule category. If it really speaks to you. I hope you can find a way to proudly display it where...you are satisfied and the tree is also showing it's best features. Sounds like a pretty amazing tree.
tmmason10
Omono
We need to see this tree!
Vin
Imperial Masterpiece
Judy, if I may provide a thought provoking image? This boxwood clump will have a trunk or trunks leaning away from the viewer. How does one determine which trunk receives the honor? If I choose the dominant trunk as the front then the other trunks will be sort of get lost in the clump. If I choose the dominant trunk as the back then it will lean away from the viewer. I think I'm going to go with the tried and true "eeny meeny miny moe " method as it will never be displayed for show.
Attachments
Vin
Imperial Masterpiece
So, you can change fronts every other day !!!
...and that's exactly what I've been doing for the last year
So there is some wiggle room within the "rules" in some cases?
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
Must see this tree from the different angles to know what you are talking about Judy.
Please post some!
Please post some!
MACH5
Imperial Masterpiece
Judy I am also one to think that if the lean is fairly severe it will always read as the tree trying hard to disengage the viewer. As you well know this is never a good thing. You might be forced to change that front since no matter how good your design may be it will always be layered on top of a flawed framework.
You are making assumptions that weren't stated in Judy's first post...she never mentioned the tree moving away from the viewer...just not toward the viewer. We know more now about her particular tree but, given the info we had at the time, my assessments are pretty much spot on.
Judy...here is a video in which Arthur Joura and I discussed the common practice of leaning trees forward in relationship to creating more naturalistic forms. I am not sure if it will help with your tree or not, but might add a little to the conversation.
[video=youtube_share;uM0ynQh1yrc]http://youtu.be/uM0ynQh1yrc[/video]
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Hey Judy,
I recently watched a R.N. video about OBJECTIVE bonsai design. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba5owK4tJVA
This should back your decision to lean it away.
At 32 minutes. By the dry erase board.
This info was recently posted on here I think.
1. Base 2. Trunk Movement (not pertaining to lean forward or away) 3. Special features 4.5.etc.
Anyway. You have demonstrated your ability to find a good front. (And every other ability! )
All of your trees (I've seen) are very "inviting". Leaned away would make them no less so.
I trust your decision will be correct. So should you .
I believe the impact of the base and initial " image" is greater right away than the "emotion" of. .."this tree doesn't like me".
You must first capture a viewer, wow them, or they will not even get to that "feeling" stage.
Does that front overcome the feelings? Sounds like it does.
I think this rule is very Japanese. Born out of a respectful culture, the tree must seem respectful.
It is a tree though, I would rather it look badass, more so than respectful.
This pic is of A tree leaning away.
Is it not inviting you to clamor up and do a tightrope walk across that right branch?
It does me. (Yes I climbed it!) And them kids.
All your trees give me that feeling. This one will Too!
Sorce
I recently watched a R.N. video about OBJECTIVE bonsai design. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba5owK4tJVA
This should back your decision to lean it away.
At 32 minutes. By the dry erase board.
This info was recently posted on here I think.
1. Base 2. Trunk Movement (not pertaining to lean forward or away) 3. Special features 4.5.etc.
Anyway. You have demonstrated your ability to find a good front. (And every other ability! )
All of your trees (I've seen) are very "inviting". Leaned away would make them no less so.
I trust your decision will be correct. So should you .
I believe the impact of the base and initial " image" is greater right away than the "emotion" of. .."this tree doesn't like me".
You must first capture a viewer, wow them, or they will not even get to that "feeling" stage.
Does that front overcome the feelings? Sounds like it does.
I think this rule is very Japanese. Born out of a respectful culture, the tree must seem respectful.
It is a tree though, I would rather it look badass, more so than respectful.
This pic is of A tree leaning away.
Is it not inviting you to clamor up and do a tightrope walk across that right branch?
It does me. (Yes I climbed it!) And them kids.
All your trees give me that feeling. This one will Too!
Sorce
Attachments
JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
As the trees are in winter storage spaces, it's not so easy to get photos, but I'll do it later on today. I do appreciate all the discussion and points of view.
And agree that photos will help the opinions to be valid, although the tree will be very difficult to show in a photo, especially the parts that would show where I am speaking of the impact portions. It has not been wired, or selective pruned, as I'm waiting to determine a front first, so it's hard to see into it at this point.
The video is very nice, and does have some things to say and add to this discussion, thanks!
And agree that photos will help the opinions to be valid, although the tree will be very difficult to show in a photo, especially the parts that would show where I am speaking of the impact portions. It has not been wired, or selective pruned, as I'm waiting to determine a front first, so it's hard to see into it at this point.
The video is very nice, and does have some things to say and add to this discussion, thanks!
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Sorry, but displaying a painting so that it is turned facing the wall is in no way a valid comparison (or at best, only slightly valid). Unless the painting is done on a transparent medium (glass, plastic), you wouldn't be able to see the painting at all. You'll still see the tree regardless of whether it leans away or not.
Perhaps a more reasonable comparison would be to a painting that was done with the perspective intentionally altered. For example, objects in the distance appear larger and more intensely colored than those in the foreground.
Perhaps a more reasonable comparison would be to a painting that was done with the perspective intentionally altered. For example, objects in the distance appear larger and more intensely colored than those in the foreground.
skrit
Yamadori
I've been watching this thread and didn't feel I had anything to contribute until today when I was browsing through another bonsai site and saw a tree with an odd shape that reminded me of this thread.
In this post, http://crataegus.com/2014/10/14/future-arboreal-projects/ there is discussion (and picture http://crataegus.com/2014/10/14/future-arboreal-projects/img_3138/) of a 8' tall mountain hemlock, the top of which is very distinctly tipped to the right and away from the viewer about 45 degrees. I know that this is NOT a great direct example of what's being discussed in the thread because not only is this tree enormous and unstyled but it only appears to be bent away in the top quarter.
However, the discussion provided by the author regarding the windswept feeling got me thinking that perhaps there is some validity to the idea of the tree making you feel the 'wind at your back'. I don't know if the OP's tree is appropriate for working into this style or not, as we are still lacking pictures, but perhaps it's something to consider. I undestand that windswept directly away from the viewer is pointless, but perhaps at a similar 45 degree angle it might be achievable?
Also, from the OP's second post describing the tilt as 'severe' I'm still having trouble visualizing the tree as having a front or back in the same direction of the tilt. Either it's leaning so far away from you that the perspective and angle gets strange, or it's leaning so far towards you that you're getting poked in the eye. Perhaps a better option would be to select a front such that the tree is in a slant style?
In this post, http://crataegus.com/2014/10/14/future-arboreal-projects/ there is discussion (and picture http://crataegus.com/2014/10/14/future-arboreal-projects/img_3138/) of a 8' tall mountain hemlock, the top of which is very distinctly tipped to the right and away from the viewer about 45 degrees. I know that this is NOT a great direct example of what's being discussed in the thread because not only is this tree enormous and unstyled but it only appears to be bent away in the top quarter.
However, the discussion provided by the author regarding the windswept feeling got me thinking that perhaps there is some validity to the idea of the tree making you feel the 'wind at your back'. I don't know if the OP's tree is appropriate for working into this style or not, as we are still lacking pictures, but perhaps it's something to consider. I undestand that windswept directly away from the viewer is pointless, but perhaps at a similar 45 degree angle it might be achievable?
Also, from the OP's second post describing the tilt as 'severe' I'm still having trouble visualizing the tree as having a front or back in the same direction of the tilt. Either it's leaning so far away from you that the perspective and angle gets strange, or it's leaning so far towards you that you're getting poked in the eye. Perhaps a better option would be to select a front such that the tree is in a slant style?
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coh
Imperial Masterpiece
It sounds like you (responding to Sawgrass here) are advocating taking the tree that perhaps has some great features from one view, and forcing it to conform to the "accepted" way of looking at it, which may in turn hide the best features of the tree. I can't agree with that approach as a blanket rule.
I do agree that for most trees, it is preferable to "go by the rules", such as leaning the tree (or especially the apex) toward the viewer. But if a tree has some knock out feature that you feel must be the focal point, and the tree leans away, then figure out a way to work with that. If you can't make it work, pass the tree along to someone who can make it work, or go ahead and compromise and make a tree that fits "the rules" but is perhaps less interesting.
As an aside...you know what's interesting about this, you keep talking about the rules, and established conventions, but those really only matter to people who study bonsai. Show Judy's tree to non-bonsai people and they may react very differently, even favorably because they haven't been taught to have "bonsai expectations". I see this in the art world a lot, at local art club shows the paintings that often garner the most interest from the general population (and get viewers choice awards, and often sell better) are very different from the paintings that other artists (and show judges) ooh and aah over.
I do agree that for most trees, it is preferable to "go by the rules", such as leaning the tree (or especially the apex) toward the viewer. But if a tree has some knock out feature that you feel must be the focal point, and the tree leans away, then figure out a way to work with that. If you can't make it work, pass the tree along to someone who can make it work, or go ahead and compromise and make a tree that fits "the rules" but is perhaps less interesting.
As an aside...you know what's interesting about this, you keep talking about the rules, and established conventions, but those really only matter to people who study bonsai. Show Judy's tree to non-bonsai people and they may react very differently, even favorably because they haven't been taught to have "bonsai expectations". I see this in the art world a lot, at local art club shows the paintings that often garner the most interest from the general population (and get viewers choice awards, and often sell better) are very different from the paintings that other artists (and show judges) ooh and aah over.
