Pinus Nigra nursery stock

[Srt8madness]

Local nursery has some Austrian pines for only $60. They are about 2 1/2' tall from soil level and flush with growth.

Of course the trunk is a stovepipe. BUT, about 1.5" from soil level there is a branch with nice movement that could become the new leader. The tree has back budded at the base even under dense foliage so I have little doubt it would keep doing so when thinned out. There isn't swelling from whorls below where this new leader would be.

Looking at other similar threads, using nursery stock is shit on pretty hard. My issue is I'm having a hard time understanding how it is much different than the method where one grows a long thick leader only to be chopped later. Yes the trunk would have a very short straight section, but a slight tilt to the planting angle and the taper developed from the new leader would handle a lot of that, no? The leader method keeps the bottom growth trimmed for better branch selection, but if the tree back buds well, that shouldn't be an issue either. It's going to be 10+ years to refine the taper anyway.

I'll probably buy it because it is a very cheap tree that I can practice more advanced techniques on, without risking killing a 4 digit tree.

I know, worthless without pics, I suppose I'll include some when I pick 'er up.

 

[Srt8madness]

On a side not, they have 2' tall JBPs for $110. What's crazy is if they had just applied a bit of occasional wire to those when they were young, they could likely be charging 10 times that much.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

On a side not, they have 2' tall JBPs for $110. What's crazy is if they had just applied a bit of occasional wire to those when they were young, they could likely be charging 10 times that much.

Nothing wrong with nursery stock . You lose the advantage from seed of training the roots early . But gain the advantage of several years growth and roots can be worked on . Only nursery negative to watch out for is ugly grafted trees . Normally dwarf cultivars grafted to regular stock .

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Pinus nigra, normally looks best when finished as a tree over 2 feet tall. Not a good species for shohin because of thick branches. I've seen a couple 3 to 4 foot tall P. nigra bonsai that were really nice. You can try to make smaller bonsai with them, but I think in time you will want to let them get a little size. Its a good species to work with, the Europeans love them.

Japanese Black Pine, are the iconic pine for bonsai, bonsai techniques were designed around JBP growth habits. So even at 2 or 3 times the price, they are worth considering. Though $110 for a 2 foot tall JBP seems a bit steep without seeing photos. If it was "fun money" I'd go for at least one JBP, but if the money should be going toward food or medicine or the mortgage or student loans, I would definitely pass on the JBP. It is just a hobby after all.

 

[Srt8madness]

Pinus nigra, normally looks best when finished as a tree over 2 feet tall. Not a good species for shohin because of thick branches. I've seen a couple 3 to 4 foot tall P. nigra bonsai that were really nice. You can try to make smaller bonsai with them, but I think in time you will want to let them get a little size. Its a good species to work with, the Europeans love them.

Japanese Black Pine, are the iconic pine for bonsai, bonsai techniques were designed around JBP growth habits. So even at 2 or 3 times the price, they are worth considering. Though $110 for a 2 foot tall JBP seems a bit steep without seeing photos. If it was "fun money" I'd go for at least one JBP, but if the money should be going toward food or medicine or the mortgage or student loans, I would definitely pass on the JBP. It is just a hobby after all.

Thanks you for the detailed answer, the JBP are the "thunderhead" variety so probably grafted. I didn't examine them as closely as the others. I have a ton of JBPs I'm growing out from seed.

And yes as to fun money, sounds like what I've been telling my younger clients in response to questions about crypto "investing".

 

[Srt8madness]

Alrighty here we go. I passed on the JBP not because of price but because it was the grafted variety that really doesn't have a good rep in bonsai.

I found what I felt is a nice Austrian pine for the price. Roots are obviously root bound, but a couple white tips on bottom, so I put a bit of potting soil on the bottom when replacing into pot. With the Temps here, I won't even attempt any actual work until early spring of next year. Probably will half bare root then. Not sure if I should do that or chop the existing trunk in favor of what will be the new trunk line. I didn't dig down to see the full nebari yet but I don't expect anything special. I do like the super low branching! Feels like I'll have options.

Totally good with the finished tree being in the 2'+ range. 52" ground to top, 38" soil to tip. JBP was a bit shorter and burlap still visible (next to my kiddo)

My initial questions and request for Bnut community help is this -
Roots or chop first
When to remove upper branches so lowers aren't shaded out.

The tree is actually very flexible, and the whole trunk could have movement wired into it. I think the section between the bottom two whorls is too long though, wouldn't keep it unless I got trunk buds.

 

[Srt8madness]

More, details, back.

The branch in my left hand is what I'm considering to chop back to/make new leader. Thoughts? Better ideas?

 

[Srt8madness]

Roots (obviously)

 

[Colorado]

I have worked with a couple of these. I have one left. I learned that you cannot reduce the foliage too rapidly.

I also highly recommend addressing the roots first, before taking off any foliage. Once you repot into proper bonsai soil, and it’s shown signs of recovery, then you can start reducing the foliage. I would identify the new leader from one of the lower branches, then remove the e foliage at the middle whorl, keeping the very top as a sacrifice branch. That can then be removed in later years.

It is not a quick project!

 

[Srt8madness]

I have worked with a couple of these. I have one left. I learned that you cannot reduce the foliage too rapidly.

I also highly recommend addressing the roots first, before taking off any foliage. Once you repot into proper bonsai soil, and it’s shown signs of recovery, then you can start reducing the foliage. I would identify the new leader from one of the lower branches, then remove the e foliage at the middle whorl, keeping the very top as a sacrifice branch. That can then be removed in later years.

It is not a quick project!

Thanks for the input! Not a quick project, TBH I'd prefer the same tree 2-3 years ago but sourcing this sort of stock locally isn't easy.

 

[Potawatomi13]

The tree is actually very flexible, and the whole trunk could have movement wired into it. I think the section between the bottom two whorls is too long though,

Based on size of hand trunk NOT easily flexible unless notched. Bottom section between whorls not that long if trunk makes abrupt change of direction at side branch and change in planting angle. (Provided roots not far under surface.)

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I would repot and do root work first. Spring in Houston is when? January or February? It is not May, May is summertime horticulturally in Houston. No serious pruning this year. Repot early 2023. Allow to recover unmolested, first pruning 2024 or 2025. That would give you high survival and high vigor after pruning.

You could compress the time, but results won't be guaranteed to be as good. Probably be okay. Results will vary.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

The trunk line as I see it is probably the main trunk to either the first whorl or the second whorl of branches. Then one of the branches becomes the new leader to its first or second whorl. I don't design from photos very well, so you will have to decide yourself.

 

[Srt8madness]

I would repot and do root work first. Spring in Houston is when? January or February? It is not May, May is summertime horticulturally in Houston. No serious pruning this year. Repot early 2023. Allow to recover unmolested, first pruning 2024 or 2025. That would give you high survival and high vigor after pruning.

You could compress the time, but results won't be guaranteed to be as good. Probably be okay. Results will vary.

Oh yeah, its way too hot right now to do anything but water and pray.

Frankly our winters rarely dip below freezing more than once or twice, I'd say late Feb the plants start slowly waking up. Nice part is I could get that rootwork done and have a nice long recovery season. I'm I'm no hurry to "do" something to the tree, just glad to have it and plan with it.

The trunk line as I see it is probably the main trunk to either the first whorl or the second whorl of branches. Then one of the branches becomes the new leader to its first or second whorl. I don't design from photos very well, so you will have to decide yourself.

That's exactly what I was thinking. It makes for a longer grow out, but unless some buds magically pop down on that 8" straight section of trunk it likely needs to go!

I realized the first Two whorls are maybe 1" apart, then 8"+ from 2-3

 

[Srt8madness]

So I've seen mentioned several times, HBR done in fall. If I'm not doing a big chop this year or next, is there any reason why I wouldn't want to go ahead and HBR this fall, and then do the second HBR late Spring 23 or fall 23? Starting this fall would accelerate my timeline by 6 months. I expect to have growing weather thru December again, so October HBR feels like a good target.

Also, as a HBR is per side, my assumption is that to get into a box, half the roots are worked, as well as a good chunk on the bottom of both sides. Wouldn't really be able to shorten rootball otherwise.

Am I talking crazy here?

 

[Srt8madness]

Pinus nigra, normally looks best when finished as a tree over 2 feet tall. Not a good species for shohin because of thick branches. I've seen a couple 3 to 4 foot tall P. nigra bonsai that were really nice. You can try to make smaller bonsai with them, but I think in time you will want to let them get a little size. Its a good species to work with, the Europeans love them.

Japanese Black Pine, are the iconic pine for bonsai, bonsai techniques were designed around JBP growth habits. So even at 2 or 3 times the price, they are worth considering. Though $110 for a 2 foot tall JBP seems a bit steep without seeing photos. If it was "fun money" I'd go for at least one JBP, but if the money should be going toward food or medicine or the mortgage or student loans, I would definitely pass on the JBP. It is just a hobby after all.

Fun follow up. The subsequent pic of my daughter was next to the JBP. So a hefty tree for $110. Went back to same nursery about a month ago, all the JBPs they had left are dead. So dodged a bullet it seems! I have 15 other JBP seedlings to raise in the meantime

 

[Potawatomi13]

I also highly recommend addressing the roots first, before taking off any foliage. Once you repot into proper bonsai soil, and it’s shown signs of recovery, then you can start reducing the foliage. I would identify the new leader from one of the lower branches, then remove the foliage at the middle whorl, keeping the very top as a sacrifice branch. That can then be removed in later years.

Great advise but one addition: Remove top of soil to find top of large roots first to find trees foundation. This may be several inches down. Then cut off about 40-50% bottom of root ball. Be careful of damage to remaining roots after doing these.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

HBR now and HBR sept 2023 sounds good. Then in 2024 or 2025 begin pruning.

Note, wiring is the least stressful activity. You can start wiring some of the 'Keeper" branches now.

and Pott's suggestion to look for surface roots is a good idea for the whole root ball this year, 2022.