Pine Death Wish

[symbiotic1]

It seems I'm doing a great job so far of growing the common Pinus muertus from a JBP. I've had no trouble growing other trees in my collection, but so far pines have been eluding me.

The larger one in the pic I bought on impulse not realizing it had spider mites. It was a out a foot taller when I got it and we chopped it to a better branch. I got it treated with the heavy duty mite killer and was left out in full sun. It steadily just declined. It tried to send out a few last buds but the thing just died.

The second one I found at a local nursery. It seemed to be doing really well. I was fertilizing it frequently. We pruned some branches and it had just undergone a second candle trimming this year. After that second candle trimming though the stuff that was there all seems to have wilted (the needles are limp and brown). I'm wondering if this can be revived or not.



Anyone have any ideas on what I'm doing wrong here? Am I overwatering? Over fertilizing? Not watering enough? My understanding was that they should be on the dry side. When it's 90-100 degrees out I tend to water the pines every other day and they both sit in full sun, otherwise they probably got watered twice a week, once in the winter.

This other little guy (jbp "kotobuki") I have is still doing ok but it's showing some yellowing at some of the tips. I don't want to kill this one too. I've been avoiding any candle work on this one so far just so I don't weaken it.


If anyone else wants some help growing the Pinus muertus let me know!

Also any insight on what I seem to be doing wrong here would be appreciated.

 

[Dav4]

From the looks of the first one, I suspect you may have removed too much too quickly with that one chop. That, and being over potted, probably pushed it over the cliff. The second one may have been over pruned as well. You cut back candles twice this year? Perhaps, the tree just ran out of energy. Anyway, when all the foliage browns at once, it's usually because the roots aren't working, so I'd certainly take a look there ( I think it's a goner, by the way). What's the soil like in those nursery cans? It looks kind of amorphous and heavy.

 

[symbiotic1]

The bigger one had been chopped down already by then but was doing ok. I suppose it's possible removing one of the two branches it had left did something. I don't know how big the tree was originally before it was chopped and I'm not sure how colonized the pot was with roots. I actually think the person I bought it from layered off the top part at some point.

I did the second candle trimming on the smaller one as recommended by my bonsai teacher. He said he often trims candles 3-4x a year here in SoCal since the growing season is so long. We did trim off a lot though.

The soil is just your basic nursery dirt. Especially in the big one it's pretty dense.

I'm wondering if I was just overwatering it and the roots rotted. Anyone else out there who lives in a similar hot, dry climate: how often do you water your pines in the summer when they're in nursery soil or in pumice/lava/more open soil? I'd like to be able the keep the little kotobuki alive at least at this point!

 

[sorce]

I see dead with chops.
And alive left alone.

I'd start there!

Sorce

 

[fourteener]

Trims candles 3-4 times a year?? There's your problem I think.

 

[M. Frary]

Trims candles 3-4 times a year?? There's your problem I think.

And maybe give them a little more water. Every other day in 100 degrees is cutting it kind of close.

 

[Adair M]

There's too little foliage on these trees. Maybe kept too dry? I water every day. Why are you even cutting candles? These trees needed to grow!

 

[symbiotic1]

I can try watering daily on the one that isn't completely dead and see what happens. I'm sure the bigger one is gone by now there's no sign of green. It always seemed like the soil was damp still below the surface the day after watering which was why I thought I was over watering and causing the roots to rot.

I've only had these less than a year and was completely new to pines so was doing what was advised. I guess it was too much for the trees.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[Eric Group]

ALWAYS ERROR ON THE SIDE OF OVER WATERING. I know, I know "root rot, the tree will drown, roots need oxygen.." All these warnings are so prevalent on the Internet it makes you think trees- especially Pines and Junis- are ALLERGIC to water! Nothing could be further from the truth. 99.99999999% of the time the only side effect from OVER watering is going to be MORE GROWTH, which is not a negative side effect at all except maybe with an ancient old developed Bonsai who need to be kept from over growing their shape.. With trees that need to grow more like these- you almost CANNOT OVER WATER. Especially once they are moved to a free draining Bonsai mix. If your pots/ soil drains well, water them more than you think they need it in the heat of the summer. Pines and Juniper do not "wilt" when under watered, so you never realize they didn't get enough until they are dead basically. I suspect that is what got you with these two... If the big one had Spider Mites, and you chopped it while it was sick, that sure didn't help either.

Again though, I just want to repeat this- a tree that gets too little water is DEAD 100% of the time! every species, every climate every time= FACT. A tree that gets too much water is just going to be a really happy tree 99.99999% of the time. Unless you have it planted in a pot that doesn't drain well/ at all or in a soil mix that basically turns to nasty mucky goo when watered, root rot is the least likely culprit of a tree's death.

Watering on a schedule of every other day (which probably means even less honestly, right?) means that these trees in full Summer sun likely completely dried out at some point, or multiple points and they died because of it. Do not water on a schedule- water when your tree NEEDS it. Check soil moisture with a chop stick or something if you don't know when they need it, but if it is 90-100 degrees, and it ain't raining, a potted plant pretty much needs it EVERY DAY.

Sorry for your losses.

Oh yeah- and where in the world did you get the idea you need to remove the candles more than once a year? Serious/ potentially fatal miscalculation there. Remove candles only once the Pine is ready to be styled/ has the trunk you want, the branches in the places you want, is in a Bonsai pot and on it's way to being a Bonsai... Even then, you do it ONCE on JBP around June or July normally depending on your climate... Not 2/3/4 times a year??

 

[sorce]

I'm calling @Eric Group "quick fingers" now!

@symbiotic1 Don't give up, but maybe give up on that teacher!

Sorce

 

[discusmike]

Wondering why your doing candle work on such young tree?

 

[fourteener]

These things work together. When cutting candles you are inhibiting growth aka...reducing a trees need for water. If you are cutting off its need for water and watering too much, then yes you will have issues related to overwatering.

I am a big proponent (no I'm not going to put up 10 pictures to prove anything, go to my blog, see if I have anything figured out) of getting a tree into good bonsai soil the first spring that comes around. I put pines in fast draining rock and haydite. A pine you buy from a nursery is not in the kind of soil you should water everyday like the rest of your trees(in good bonsai soil).

Pines are long-term project. It takes awhile to get them into form. The payoff is once they are in a nice form, they don't grow out of it quickly. Keep up the effort. I fear you are getting bad advice. That's difficult to overcome.

 

[fourteener]

Here are two pines I have. The first is a weeping Jack Pine I bought at a nursery this season. It's in typical garden soil you'd find at a garden center. I water it once a week. Next year I'll start the process of getting it into good Bonsai soil.


The second tree is an old Ponderosa. It is an old established tree in this pot for 7 years or so. I have watered it twice this summer. It is in pure chicken grit.



Pines like it dry. The color of the soil has more to do with the need to put more water on it than watering it daily, every other day, etc. when I repot the Jack pine next year, it's going to go from weekly water to daily water and as the summer goes on I need to figure out the change.

Enjoy the learning curve.

 

[Txhorticulture]

Here are two pines I have. The first is a weeping Jack Pine I bought at a nursery this season. It's in typical garden soil you'd find at a garden center. I water it once a week. Next year I'll start the process of getting it into good Bonsai soil.

Love this plant. Do you know the cultivar name?

 

[fourteener]

It is a Jack Pine. More specific it is an Uncle Fogey.

 

[Cypress187]

I'm also very bad with conifers, i killed all but 1.

 

[M. Frary]

Here are two pines I have. The first is a weeping Jack Pine I bought at a nursery this season. It's in typical garden soil you'd find at a garden center. I water it once a week. Next year I'll start the process of getting it into good Bonsai soil.
View attachment 80534

The second tree is an old Ponderosa. It is an old established tree in this pot for 7 years or so. I have watered it twice this summer. It is in pure chicken grit.

View attachment 80535

Pines like it dry. The color of the soil has more to do with the need to put more water on it than watering it daily, every other day, etc. when I repot the Jack pine next year, it's going to go from weekly water to daily water and as the summer goes on I need to figure out the change.

Enjoy the learning curve.

I've never seen a Jack pine in a nursery but have heard of them. Nice. Have you collected any?

 

[fourteener]

I've never seen a Jack pine in a nursery but have heard of them. Nice. Have you collected any?

I tried this year. It didn't make it. It was growing in railroad gravel. The Scot pine that was next to it in the gravel did very well.

 

[M. Frary]

I tried this year. It didn't make it. It was growing in railroad gravel. The Scot pine that was next to it in the gravel did very well.

I collected 5 and 3 made it.

 

[symbiotic1]

@symbiotic1 Don't give up, but maybe give up on that teacher!

I don't plan on giving up. I'm just trying to learn what I'm doing wrong. The teacher is a local second generation bonsai expert so I trust his advice. He has beautiful pines and does candle work several times a year. I haven't been able to take the trees to him to figure out what's wrong which was why I asked here because many of you are highly experienced too and I wanted to see if there was any saving them.

Here are two pines I have. The first is a weeping Jack Pine I bought at a nursery this season. It's in typical garden soil you'd find at a garden center. I water it once a week. Next year I'll start the process of getting it into good Bonsai soil.

The second tree is an old Ponderosa. It is an old established tree in this pot for 7 years or so. I have watered it twice this summer. It is in pure chicken grit.

Enjoy the learning curve.

Those two pines look like they'll be amazing! I've purposely only bought inexpensive pines at this point to learn how to keep them alive before investing on stuff of that quality or collecting as you did. And I'm glad I haven't yet as obviously I'm still figuring it out!