Open to suggestions on this abused Juniper

Floridays

Sapling
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Location
Southeast Florida
USDA Zone
9B
One year ago this month, before I knew anything about Bonsai I decided to buy a box store Juniper and hack away at it.

One year later, and a year wiser I'm wondering if this little guy can be saved or re-shaped. It has pruning scars and the main trunk takes a drastic turn towards the back (sorry for only one picture).

Any thoughts or ideas would be welcomed as a learning experience!

Thanks,

Scott

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I'm curious what it looks like from the other side since the tree is leaning that way

I would not do any more pruning.

But you could put some wire on those branches and get some shape in them.
 
I'm curious what it looks like from the other side since the tree is leaning that way

I would not do any more pruning.

But you could put some wire on those branches and get some shape in them.

I'll take some more pics tonight and perhaps that will help determine the front and wiring, thank you!
 
You can absolutely save this tree. You just have to add a lot of movement. If the question is whether to keep or save, I say go for broke. Heavy bends, and if it snaps, it snaps. I see two options. Both of which will work for informal upright. Try to follow along, I know I can be confusing in explaining things in words when it's more of a visual art.

Option 1: Bend the living shit out of it.

1.) Structural- Assume the branch going to the left in your pic is going to be the first branch. Wire it down to start, add a bit of movement in the counterclockwise direction, and set the foliage so it spreads out in that pad shape we all know so much.
A.) What to do with the long leaning beanpole of a trunk- Well, theres good news here. The tree looks to be thin enough to get good strong bends in it. What I would do, keeping in mind this is your design, so you choose at the end of the day. I would choose the front as about 35 degrees counterclockwise from where it is in the pic, assuming there isn't a narrow nebari there. If there is, flip that 35 degree turn 180 degrees and use that as your set point. The key here is that you want the eventual apex coming towards the viewer. So, I would start with the basic principle that you will mostly be trying to bend the tree as far to the left as possible, while giving it some directionality forward as well. As you bend, make sure each branch is on the outside of a bend, and take the tree slightly vertical past that branches location. Think of it as a sort of step ladder, with varying step lengths and distances.
B.) Biggest problem and how to fix it- I don't see the length of the trunk being a problem, as you will just make a tall tree. What is a problem, however, is the way all the branches come off the top of the trunk. To fix this, as you apply wire, use it to twist the trunk a bit before applying the last two or three rotations of wire prior to each branch's start point. This will move the branches from all out the top to well distributed around the trunk.

2.) Branching- As you twist that trunk, the orientation of the foliage will shift on the branches. Make sure that when you set each branch, you are twisting, again, to bring the foliage to a flat pad. With everything going vertical now, there will be new foliage exposed to the sun, so protection from afternoon sun will help get that newly exposed foliage acclimated to the sun's rays. When you flatten the foliage into pads, it will probably get you some back budding because you will be increasing the photosynthetic capability of the tree. Don't prune right now, wire everything you have, no matter how sure you are it'll go eventually. It shouldn't go now. Make sure to look from above the tree before you start wiring the branches, but after you wire the trunk. Try to fill every space of a circle around the tree, and not to overlap one branch over the other. This will increase the tree's strength and potential to back bud heavily.

Option 2: Assume that the first branch on the left is your new trunk

This one is much easier to explain, wire the left branch up as if it will be the next step in the trunk. Over the next three to four years, cut back the foliage of the current main trunk in steps, and minimize your pruning of the new trunk on the left. Eventually you will work your way down to the origin of that trunk line, where you can build one hell of a shari and jin. Now you made a tree out of only the left side of the current tree.

Best of luck.
 
While you're taking pictures, a view from the top might be helpful too.

One question that I have is what do you mean by "saved"? What do you want the tree to look like? Take some of your images and mess with them in Paint/GIMP to see what you can come up with.

For example, one simple change that I might consider (the next time it's appropriate to repot) is straightening the planting angle of the main trunk, like so...

tree.png

Doesn't fix the backwards lean, but it's a start, don't you think? Especially if you wire some of the foliage down into pads...
tree2.png

Gave up on background cloning, but I think you get the drift. Maybe it will never be world class, but you could still end up with a cute little tree.
 
One year later, and a year wiser I'm wondering if this little guy can be saved or re-shaped.

It does not need to be "saved" as it appears healthy. Keep it growing and consider shaping it next year - Bonsai takes time - don't worry it for now ;)

Grimmy
 
Ok, here are more pics if it helps...and thank you for the feedback so far, I will be carefully reading all of this and addressing any questions I have regarding the advice. I SO much appreciate the time spent by all giving advice and will learn so much from it! I just wanted to get these pics up first.

Thank you!

Top
View media item 3663Front
View media item 3660Back
View media item 3662Right side
View media item 3661Left side
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Attractive shape in that last photo! The stump nubs can be removed with a concave or a knob cutter. I believe you want the previous knob area cut below level of bark, so the knob cutter takes out a bite, then when it barks over to heal and scar over it will be level with the rest.
 
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Beebs is long, but right.:)
You've got two possibilities, growing it out that may last much time or compacting it to shorten the internodes optically making some interesting bends on the trunk that will enable you to get existing branches right where you need them. Just remember, junipers live from foliage.

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/one-more-time-yamadori-style-junipers.4789/
 
Ok, here are more pics if it helps...and thank you for the feedback so far, I will be carefully reading all of this and addressing any questions I have regarding the advice. I SO much appreciate the time spent by all giving advice and will learn so much from it! I just wanted to get these pics up first.

Thank you!



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I think your front is somewhere in here right now IMHO. Why? because the tree leans/reaches toward the viewer, not away as in the original picture you posted
You need to wire those branches and get some shape into them.
The tree needs to grow up some more and thicken that trunk and make more foliage.
 
The stump nubs can be removed with a concave or a knob cutter. I believe you want the previous knob area cut below level of bark, so the knob cutter takes out a bite, then when it barks over to heal and scar over it will be level with the rest.

I'm on it! Finally got my concave cutter.

Beebs is long, but right.:)
You've got two possibilities, growing it out that may last much time or compacting it to shorten the internodes optically making some interesting bends on the trunk that will enable you to get existing branches right where you need them. Just remember, junipers live from foliage.

First of all thank you Beebs, I actually printed your reply and am still studying it. It's slowly beginning to make sense so I'm going to take this slowly. As far as compacting vs growing out, hmmmm. I'll mull that one over.

I think your front is somewhere in here right now IMHO. Why? because the tree leans/reaches toward the viewer, not away as in the original picture you posted
You need to wire those branches and get some shape into them.
The tree needs to grow up some more and thicken that trunk and make more foliage.

The recurring theme is to wire this tree to get some shape into them. I guess I need to determine the end product first correct? Should I sketch some ideas and then wire accordingly? Also by shape, what specifically do you mean? (please excuse my novice):oops:
 
The recurring theme is to wire this tree to get some shape into them. I guess I need to determine the end product first correct? Should I sketch some ideas and then wire accordingly? Also by shape, what specifically do you mean? (please excuse my novice):oops:

You need to come up with a plan. A drawing is a great way to start, but be open to change as the tree develops.
There may be possibilities in the future that you dont see now
Shape means curves, bends, direction, get rid of the straightness of the branches
 
You need to come up with a plan. A drawing is a great way to start, but be open to change as the tree develops.
There may be possibilities in the future that you dont see now
Shape means curves, bends, direction, get rid of the straightness of the branches

Gotcha, makes good sense. I'll work up some ideas and get on it. Your description on shape is spot on, and as I suspected. Thank you!
 
Just remember that when you are bending, don't try to snake the branches or trunk. Give a bit of bend, or a sharp angled bend here or there, but don't overdo the directional changes. Best example of what you shouldn't do would be to look at a chinese elm "mallsai." What you will typically see with those is an exaggerated S shape, at times almost looking like a dollar sign S. If you want a bit more of an idea on how to achieve nice pads and proper tree structure as you wire, I believe Ryan Neil's Bonsai Mirai has the nursery stock series for free. Check out the first one and watch how he wires the tree up. I am a subscriber to Bonsai Mirai, so I am not entirely sure if that is free, but I believe it is. It'll better illustrate a lot of what I was long-windedly saying.
 
Also, once you get the trunk in place, allow the tree to dictate where it's branches will end. What do I mean by this? So, let's say you've bent and twisted the trunk, and all of your trunk structure is set. As you begin to wire and set your branches, if the branch you're wiring comes off the right side of the trunk, wire it as a right branch. You can move it forward or back, and you should to get more movement, but the branch should exist within the side of the trunk it's origin comes from. Not only does this save you severe bending, but it also takes some of that big design question away. You know that a branch coming out of the back is a back branch, even though you can move it left or right to fill in some spaces. You know that a branch coming out of the left side is a left branch, but you can still move it forward and backward to fill in space. If you have two branches coming out of the same side, and the only place you can use both stacks one on top of the other, you know one of the two has to go. You still have creative license over the branch's movement and pad design, but this method takes a lot of the indecision and unease out of the design process.
 
I think you could wire that tree into a little windswept style, considering the trunk movement.

I also would not take a concave cutter to the knobs on the trunk... junipers don't roll over cuts like a maple...
Best to leave them, they'll disappear with age, or add character to the tree in the future.
Jinning branches is always a better option than concave cuts on the trunk, with a juniper.
 
I think you could wire that tree into a little windswept style, considering the trunk movement.

I also would not take a concave cutter to the knobs on the trunk... junipers don't roll over cuts like a maple...
Best to leave them, they'll disappear with age, or add character to the tree in the future.
Jinning branches is always a better option than concave cuts on the trunk, with a juniper.

I thought Fukinagashi as well for a second, but then I realized it doesn't really solve the problem of those branches all originating from the same side of the trunk. I assume you would still recommend adding a twist to the trunk in strategic locations to fix that, correct?

You did spur my brain when you mentioned windswept though, because it made me try to figure out how to fix the all-vertical branch problem. Then I realized, Look at his opportunity for a connected root/raft-style juniper. Seems like an advanced technique for a self-proclaimed newbie, but it's a perfect starter for it.
 
Options options!! :D

Well before the last few comments I tried my hand at a sketch based on Paradox's suggestion for the back side to be the front. I'm just having trouble with what to do with the left side now, it's the long extended trunk part...Any thoughts?

My steps
View media item 3666
Current rough outline
View media item 3667
Possible shaping?
View media item 3668
 
Options options!! :D

Well before the last few comments I tried my hand at a sketch based on Paradox's suggestion for the back side to be the front. I'm just having trouble with what to do with the left side now, it's the long extended trunk part...Any thoughts?

My steps
View media item 3666
Current rough outline
View media item 3667
Possible shaping?
View media item 3668


Not a bad possible plan
 
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