One of these Seigens is not like the other...

[Cadillactaste]

I don't tend to look for cultivar...but character. This thread saddens me to a degree. If I ever come across one that landed on my bench. I doubt I would ID it as such. I would list it as Japanese maple of unknown cultivar. Just to allow ones to appreciate it for the tree as it stands as a visual. Without judgment.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I don't tend to look for cultivar...but character. This thread saddens me to a degree. If I ever come across one that landed on my bench. I doubt I would ID it as such. I would list it as Japanese maple of unknown cultivar. Just to allow ones to appreciate it for the tree as it stands as a visual. Without judgment.

It is funny - I agree and disagree As bonsai - I would identify it as a Japanese maple and be less concerned about cultivar. The primary reason I cultivar shop is to buy pretty trees to place in landscape. I may, at some point in the future, take some air-layers from some of those trees... but I'll let you know when that happens.

I have always been a supporter of the idea that you cannot visually identify JM cultivars. If you have lost the provenance of the tree, for any reason, it becomes a generic Japanese maple. This thread was simply pointing out that even when you think you have good provenance... sometimes you will end up with trees that appear dissimilar. I have sent out trees to be DNA tested before - but the testing was to the species level (American chestnut vs Chinese chestnut), and there is no current DNA database for JM cultivars (I asked). I suppose if you wanted to go crazy you could send in samples from two trees of the same cultivar and ask them to be tested against each other to see if they vary even slightly (since they are supposed to be clones).

And to add more fuel to the fire... I got my four east coast seigen trees from the same source that @Brian Van Fleet got his... because he told me where he got them

 

[Gabler]

I don't tend to look for cultivar...but character. This thread saddens me to a degree. If I ever come across one that landed on my bench. I doubt I would ID it as such. I would list it as Japanese maple of unknown cultivar. Just to allow ones to appreciate it for the tree as it stands as a visual. Without judgment.

If you're talking about a mature tree with great character, I agree a hundred percent. The cultivar is irrelevant. If we're talking about buying younger stock to grow into a bonsai, cultivar can sometimes be relevant.

Here, the problem is really about dishonest sellers, more than it's about good or bad trees.

 

[Cadillactaste]

If you're talking about a mature tree with great character, I agree a hundred percent. The cultivar is irrelevant. If we're talking about buying younger stock to grow into a bonsai, cultivar can sometimes be relevant.

Here, the problem is really about dishonest sellers, more than it's about good or bad trees.

Across the pond..they have some amazing character in this cultivar. I think I'm kind of done growing younger stock into Bonsai. For me...I'm about character. that said... a clump I've a soft spot for. I think they could stand strong even with young material. That's just me...and where I am at. I do projects though. I've a few on my bench. I love taking material further. But I've never intentionally bought many for cultivar ever. I've just never done that done that. But...you do make a good point some would very much buy for a specific cultivar. Would want that recognition. I just handle my collection differently.

 

[Piedmont Bonsai]

Here is my Topiary Gardens “Seigen” while a beautiful plant. I think it is safe to say this is not really seigen based on both leaf color and shape.


This one is “seigen” from maplestone ornamentals. As I said previously its the closest i have seen to pictures of verifiable seigen from Japan, but I need to compare over time with 100% authenticated Seigen that I bought to be 1000% sure.
I will be honest I would not be surprised if all the “seigen” being sold in the US is in fact not Seigen, which is why this is an issue. As a consumer you expect to buy something from a trusted nursery and that thing be what they say it is. Instead we have to play this guessing game when none of them could be real Seigen.

 

[Piedmont Bonsai]

If you're talking about a mature tree with great character, I agree a hundred percent. The cultivar is irrelevant. If we're talking about buying younger stock to grow into a bonsai, cultivar can sometimes be relevant.

Here, the problem is really about dishonest sellers, more than it's about good or bad trees.

I don’t know that it’s dishonesty. I think more so it is ignorance and Japanese maple nursery’s wanting to capitalize on the bonsai market.

 

[Gabler]

I don’t know that it’s dishonesty. I think more so it is ignorance and Japanese maple nursery’s wanting to capitalize on the bonsai market.

Normally, that's what I would assume, but if it's widely known that certain sellers are mislabeling plants, I find it hard to believe the sellers haven't gotten any complaints. Just a single complaint would put the seller on notice that maybe something is wrong.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Normally, that's what I would assume, but if it's widely known that certain sellers are mislabeling plants, I find it hard to believe the sellers haven't gotten any complaints. Just a single complaint would put the seller on notice that maybe something is wrong.

Maybe...they trust their source. So they don't believe what is said is factual. So it's heresy... they feel? That truly explains it in my minds eye. They trust their source.

 

[MrBonsai19]

Purchased from Round Valley nursery as a 'Seigen'... would be curious to know if this may not be accurate. I wouldn't even take much issue with the mislabeling as I find the tree to be incredibly attractive, but I don't want to present it as something it's not.

 

[The Barber]

My seigen this year. Last year it had more green on the leaves.

 

[Piedmont Bonsai]

My seigen this year. Last year it had more green on the leaves.View attachment 590262

This looks more like Beni Maiko than Seigen.

 

[Ohmy222]

i don't know her personally but the person running Topiary Gardens is pretty awesome and has like 700+ different cultivars in her collection. It is hard to believe a collector like that is trying to cut corners and if they did then why don't they produce more? it is a bad scam if you are only offering a handful a year and then charging the same price as all the other basic maples they are selling. If I am scamming you then I am going to produce a lot and then charge you $125 for a 1 gallon. Not produce 10 for the year and sell at $35 a piece. This year she didn't even have any Seigen to sell at all. The bonsai market is nothing like the general maple collecting market where some 1-gallon trees sell for a few hundred a piece. i would be far more concerned with bonsai sellers selling Seigen or Beni Chidoris than maple nurseries. Having said that, I have a few Seigen from 4 different sources and 3 are pretty similar to me. One is different and very striking pink. The one thing i will say is they vary from year to year. Meaning one year on the same plant I will get a bright pink with some yellow veins and then the next year get more of a coral color. Cutting from the exact plant will even have different colors. So much has to do with climate, the season, watering, sunlight, health, and fertilizer routines. My tree in the south will not be the same as one in the Pacific Northwest or Japan. Fall coloring is even more variable. I get stellar fall color once every 2-3 years and even then it is Late Nov or Dec and short lived. The saddest part to me is that Seigen really isn't the best cultivar for the traits it is known for. It is a nice one but really Shin Deshojo is a better pink and lasts 3 times longer. Beni Maiko is similar but more vigorous. Corallinum is a touch lighter in spring but more compact, twiggier, and gives a good show in the summer as well. We, including me, have all been conditioned by Japan and Peter Adams that it is the quintessential maple. A good one for sure, be no need to stress over not having one.

 

[The Barber]

This looks more like Beni Maiko than Seigen.

It came from Mendocino Maples.

 

[Dan W.]

I have had four different "Seigen's" here in the US as well, and so far none are quite the same. It's possible that my Mr. Maple and Maplestone varieties will come out very similar though.
I also find it interesting that my Seigen, Wilson's Pink Dwarf, and Bonfire from Maplestone Ornamentals are all almost identical in foliage (which does come very close to the accurate description of true Seigen), but they all differ in growth habit.
My "Seigen" from Round Valley is essentially identical to Deshojo, though it might keep the color longer. (I've only had it through one spring so far.)
My other west coast "Seigen" came from Mendocino Maples. It was markedly different from all of the other versions I've had as well.

 

[Dan W.]

I don't tend to look for cultivar...but character. This thread saddens me to a degree. If I ever come across one that landed on my bench. I doubt I would ID it as such. I would list it as Japanese maple of unknown cultivar. Just to allow ones to appreciate it for the tree as it stands as a visual. Without judgment.

You bring up a good point. I also agree, and disagree.
If we're judging a fine Japanese maple bonsai in competition (ideally out of leaf), then the cultivar should play no part at all. Unless perhaps two trees are tied, being of the exact same quality, but one is known to be a harder cultivar to work with. Maybe the difficulty factor would give it a point over the other? How many judges would even have that depth of knowledge here anyway though.. That's the only scenario that comes to mind where it might play a factor anyway.
And as you stated, most of the value in selecting good bonsai material or adding an older bonsai to your collection should come down to the character of the tree specifically. Base, trunk, branching, ramification, style, personal taste, and health of course.
But, having additional desirable characteristics can add value, and enjoyment, for any tree. For someone like me who is growing young maples out for future bonsai, those characteristics add a lot to the fun part of this stage of development. And there are many folks who are seeking out specific cultivars of maples for bonsai.
If I were looking to make a weeping style Japanese maple bonsai, for example, I'd likely seek out a cultivar like your 'Ryusen' or one of its offspring for the weeping characteristic, which I'm guessing you do appreciate about that tree.
Personally I love all of the variety offered by Japanese maples with beautiful spring color, or interesting bark, etc. . It all adds another level of enjoyment for me. Sets those trees apart in a different way.
There are the old guard cultivars that have been long admired for bonsai purposes in Japan. Seigen being one of the most famous and long standing, which is why so many of us would like to track it down and know that we are growing the real deal.
And finally we get back to how I agree with your statement again... lol! Does it really matter? Not necessarily. All of these false or questionable "Seigen's" are beautiful trees. We can appreciate them too.
Just know that some of us would like to finally know that we know that we know, whether it really matters that much or not.

Sorry for the long winded reply!

 

[Piedmont Bonsai]

i don't know her personally but the person running Topiary Gardens is pretty awesome and has like 700+ different cultivars in her collection. It is hard to believe a collector like that is trying to cut corners and if they did then why don't they produce more? it is a bad scam if you are only offering a handful a year and then charging the same price as all the other basic maples they are selling. If I am scamming you then I am going to produce a lot and then charge you $125 for a 1 gallon. Not produce 10 for the year and sell at $35 a piece. This year she didn't even have any Seigen to sell at all. The bonsai market is nothing like the general maple collecting market where some 1-gallon trees sell for a few hundred a piece. i would be far more concerned with bonsai sellers selling Seigen or Beni Chidoris than maple nurseries. Having said that, I have a few Seigen from 4 different sources and 3 are pretty similar to me. One is different and very striking pink. The one thing i will say is they vary from year to year. Meaning one year on the same plant I will get a bright pink with some yellow veins and then the next year get more of a coral color. Cutting from the exact plant will even have different colors. So much has to do with climate, the season, watering, sunlight, health, and fertilizer routines. My tree in the south will not be the same as one in the Pacific Northwest or Japan. Fall coloring is even more variable. I get stellar fall color once every 2-3 years and even then it is Late Nov or Dec and short lived. The saddest part to me is that Seigen really isn't the best cultivar for the traits it is known for. It is a nice one but really Shin Deshojo is a better pink and lasts 3 times longer. Beni Maiko is similar but more vigorous. Corallinum is a touch lighter in spring but more compact, twiggier, and gives a good show in the summer as well. We, including me, have all been conditioned by Japan and Peter Adams that it is the quintessential maple. A good one for sure, be no need to stress over not having one.

No one is saying that she is scamming. Like someone else mentioned earlier she probably trusts her source that the scion material is what they say it is. Color is important but not the defining factor. There are plenty of red and pink japanese maples. As others mentioned previously leaf shape size and the overall effect matter and should be the giveaway. If your Seigen doesn’t resemble this, then its probably not seigen.

 

[Piedmont Bonsai]

Maplestone ornamentals today:




Topiary Gardens Today:

 

[Contact]

So this is my anemic seigen...I've one mother plant and 2 airlayers from last season..these are from a nursery in Italy that had some seigen some years ago.