Oak tree from nursery not looking well

[maroun.c]

Acquired this oak from a bonsai nursery which was closing business, trees had been moved to another nursery for final sale. I had visited the place few times in last month to pick up few trees and their soil always looked to dry so a period of lack of watering is to be suspected. I acquired this one couple weeks back and we had some extended rain which is not typical to this time of the year here so it was watered very well since acquisition.
It's in a tin container and the bottom completely rusted and detached so I can see a very thick rootball attached in thick muddy soil, I do lose a bit of soul with watering.
Since this week I can see dry leaves and some are shedding. I'm not sure if oak sheds old leaves at buds opening. I can see some new growth at base and loads of bids on branches end which leads me to think tree was very healthy.
Do u think this is normal leaves shedding (shedding last years leaves not only older leaves ) or do u expect a watering issue or maybe the rusted tin pot without a base.

Anything u suggest for me to do ? Remove brown leaves ? Slip repot in a plastic pot without disturbing roots?
I'm planing to move to bonsai pot end of next winter so can it wait ?

And finally if tree makes it and seing that it's budding from old bark do u suggest chopping the top for a new style or is current branching workable ?

On the bright side I see few buds opening up as in pics

thanks

 

[Esolin]

Shocks of many types can make oaks drop leaves for a season. While I don't know this particular variety (cork oak?), the amount of back budding you're getting is a very good sign. The tree has a lot of energy reserves and is now deploying them to recover. I don't think you need to worry. Again, don't know this particular species and how it reacts to major work, but if it were mine, this is when I would perform any major branch cut backs. When an oak is pushing buds, but hasn't yet spent all its energy growing those new leaves, is a great time to redirect that energy into growing new branches where I want.

But you can also play it safe and wait another year until it has fully adjusted to its new home and built up even more strength. Or you could repot. I don't think you need to, though. I think it would be better to do major styling/chopping now while it's in a big pot and can recover faster, rather than to reduce its roots to a smaller pot and then chop it back. Oaks also don't tend to like root work, so you might want to do it in smaller stages. Repot or chop. Your choice. Just don't do both right now or you'll really weaken it.

It's a beautiful tree and will make a nice bonsai. Good luck!

 

[rockm]

This looks like a cork oak to me. If so, it's what we here in the U.S. call a "live oak" as it retains leaves all year long. In the spring, older leaves are pushed off by new growth (although some older leaves can remain). Now is the time when that growth is happening, as you're seeing.

 

[rockm]

Also FWIW, there MAY be something else going on along with the seasonal thing. All that new growth at the base of the tree and relative inactive buds on the top and peculiarly colored leaves, could be an indication you've got dying branches. Low growing shoots like that CAN BE an indication the tree is trying to get around issues above...Keep an eye on the buds up top to insure they open and grow....

 

[maroun.c]

It is a local species as per the previous owner so presume quercus ilex or libani which are the 2 species common here. Foliage might go more for ilex.
Indeed I'm a bit worried by the new growth on lower trunk. I do see a bit of green on few of the buds on top so hoping they will open. As said trees were moved to a different nursery and I saw them dry a few times so hoping it isn't an irreversible drought period. Guess will keep a bit in the shade and water it well and observe. Won't do any repotting or branch work unless I see signs of health all over.

 

[maroun.c]

Seing more and more branches push new shoots yet a few haven't pushed yet.
Starting to think tree had a bit of watering issue or other that most probably it got through. Other trees from.it in same placement have pushed harder and longer shoots already.
I also see a very agressive push at the base. Wondering between:
Keeping bottom shoots to support the tree if I end up loosing considerable amount of the top, but afraid that the healthy suckers might push the tree to drop struggling branches at the top ?
Any advice ?

 

[rockm]

Again, FWIW and TBH, the top of this tree is a mess to begin with. If it were mine, I'd chop it where all the crazy top branching begins and work with those shoots the tree is producing lower down. It would be a better tree for that...

 

[bwaynef]

I'd split the difference right now. I don't have much experience with oaks, and NO experience with this variety, so do with this what you will. I'd cut the top branches back (leaving some foliage) and reduce some of the sprouts lower down so that some of the energy in the lower section can be directed to the upper branching.

My white oak sent up water sprouts after being collected and they grew earlier and more vigorously than the rest of the tree. I've reduced the foliage on those water sprouts so that the tree doesn't favor them over the existing branching.

I think the burnt tips on the foliage is a result of water mismanagement as you suspect so wouldn't worry too much there other than making sure its watered appropriately in your care.

Good luck with it.

 

[maroun.c]

Thanks for the replies, plan will be to rework the top, hopefully with keeping some.of the branching to avoid having to wait forever to have a tree.
My most concern is to repot next jan- Feb as its in a rusted pot and bottom is already detached leaving bottom roots uncovered. So I'm.trying to delay severe branch work till tree is repoted and recovered.

 

[Wulfskaar]

While the tree is awkward looking with all the bulges and reverse taper, I do like the way the branches move. They look a lot like the huge valley oaks around here.

 

[rockm]

Thanks for the replies, plan will be to rework the top, hopefully with keeping some.of the branching to avoid having to wait forever to have a tree.
My most concern is to repot next jan- Feb as its in a rusted pot and bottom is already detached leaving bottom roots uncovered. So I'm.trying to delay severe branch work till tree is repoted and recovered.

I see absolutely no reason to keep any of those top branches. They're going to die anyway, given the weak growth on them, compared to the extremely vigorous shoots coming from the trunk lower down. The top branching is far too tall, with far too little ramification, to be of any use or consequence. They diminish what otherwise is a trunk with a lot of potential. They make the bottom third of the trunk look small and insignificant.

The lower growth, judging from its vigor, is where the future of the tree is. Such strong growth can easily be developed into branching within the same time frame as trying to resurrect those gangly top branches. Branching using those shoots in their location will make a more compact, better bonsai.

There is no danger in getting rid of the top branching. The tree has already begun compensating for losing and/or abandoning them. They are a drain on the rest of the tree at this point. That is what the strong growth at the bottom and weak growth up top is telling you.

I have found oak extremely responsive to extremely hard pruning. In fact, branching is iffy if my oak is left unpruned. To get any significant ramification on mine required multiple heavy cut back on all branching, then regrowth.

FWIW, that is exactly what happened with your oak. If you look, you notice things. Someone chopped off the top of it, resulting in all those multiple leaders coming from the same point on the trunk (which is only going to develop inverse taper if all those branches are left to grow, BTW) ....Whoever chopped it just didn't know what to do with the resulting shoots and left them all to grow out at the same rate, resulting in the current undisciplined visually confusing tangle.

 

[maroun.c]

Thanks for all the replies.
Tree seems yo have exploded with growth, I see gigantic leaves on the top which are easily 5 time the size of older leaves. Not a concern at this stage but clearly a lesson for after developing this tree.
I'm in favor of having to chop the branches, and develop the new branches for a nicer more compact top and where not all branching originates from a single spot like what is the case now.

Older pictures so I haven't pruned the votto growth.

I'm struggling with where to chop the tree, at the lower red side or the upper yellow line?
The higher yellow line will result in a higher more workable tree but that side shift of the branch looks weird and hard to handle.
Red is a bit on the low side but would give a bulkier trunk with less straight section.
I'm also not sure what style to go for, I'm sure with the heavy fast growth, I can achieve any style and have branches anywhere I want on the tree.
Appreciate input or a sketch of a style to go for if possible .

Thanks

 

[nuttiest]

I would flush cut the two ugliest (center) branches and let tree recover a year then when callus is halfway on those wounds cut other two way back.
If you chop where you are marking there is nothing above to heal the wound this summer.
It depends what's on the other side of trunk... it looks like a branch was snapped off at red line causing the bottom growth.

 

[rockm]

Thanks for all the replies.
Tree seems yo have exploded with growth, I see gigantic leaves on the top which are easily 5 time the size of older leaves. Not a concern at this stage but clearly a lesson for after developing this tree.
I'm in favor of having to chop the branches, and develop the new branches for a nicer more compact top and where not all branching originates from a single spot like what is the case now.
View attachment 486176View attachment 486177
Older pictures so I haven't pruned the votto growth.
View attachment 486179View attachment 486180
I'm struggling with where to chop the tree, at the lower red side or the upper yellow line?
The higher yellow line will result in a higher more workable tree but that side shift of the branch looks weird and hard to handle.
Red is a bit on the low side but would give a bulkier trunk with less straight section.
I'm also not sure what style to go for, I'm sure with the heavy fast growth, I can achieve any style and have branches anywhere I want on the tree.
Appreciate input or a sketch of a style to go for if possible .

Thanks

Yellow line--a half to a quarter inch below that line would be even better. Get rid of the knot of inverse taper developing. At the red line, You'd lose all that trunk taper and movement.

 

[rockm]

I would flush cut the two ugliest (center) branches and let tree recover a year then when callus is halfway on those wounds cut other two way back.
If you chop where you are marking there is nothing above to heal the wound this summer.
It depends what's on the other side of trunk... it looks like a branch was snapped off at red line causing the bottom growth.

Doesn't make much difference that there will be no growth above the cut. Seal the wound and it will take care of itself. Been there done that with oak. Not an issue. There will likely be new buds popping at the chop site as well. Hard pruning does that. The oaks I have explode with backbudding when old wood is cut.

 

[HorseloverFat]

I'm just here to be Rockm's "hype man", as I agree with his input.

 

[nuttiest]

Doesn't make much difference that there will be no growth above the cut. Seal the wound and it will take care of itself. Been there done that with oak. Not an issue. There will likely be new buds popping at the chop site as well. Hard pruning does that. The oaks I have explode with backbudding when old wood is cut.

I thouhgt this was holly.