Newly collected American Hornbeam, looking for feedback.

[W3rk]

Newly collected American Hornbeam, my first collected tree. I'm probably going to answer some of my own questions but I'd love some feedback.

My first priority of course is the health and survival of the tree. It's currently too big. Generally speaking I'm not interested in large bonsai - I need ease of maintenance. The only trunk/branch cut so far is just above the top of the first picture. My initial vision of this I'd be looking at the main trunk chop being done lower, above the second branch.

But I also wanted to leave some existing branching that is already starting to push buds to help the tree recover as we come in to spring.

Also the pot/soil mass/roots are just too large and really heavy (it has to be more portable). I erred on the side of caution on root removal (and again by not trimming any branches yet). Should I just be more aggressive about all of this? Go in and make another quick pass at trimming roots back a bit more tomorrow and removing more of the top and longer branches?

It's just started to form and push buds. Our weather has mostly sub-freezing over night temps for the next week so for the short term I intend to just keep it in the unheated garage.

 

[JudyB]

I think that I'd take off the top third of the tree, that will make it lighter and easier to move around, and get rid of a straight ugly section. Also will leave less top for the roots to feed, so will concentrate the growth. I would leave all the roots that you can. Chop it about an inch above the second branch from the bottom. Seal it. What kind of soil did you put it in?

 

[0soyoung]

I suggest cutting it down to the lowest branch (making it become the next trunk section), but fully understand any reluctance to do so. Maybe layer it there rather than chopping right away (always makes me feel better = emotions I seem to always have which I do not understand logically ). Logically, though, I think you will end up with a nicer tree by reducing the present trunk to the lowest branch.

Alas ...

 

[WNC Bonsai]

I agree abiut chopping the upper section above the second branch. However you might want to wait and see where you get new buds popping unless you are happy with the tree form below the proposed chop. I have done a lot of looking for these and so far haven’t found any with such low branching so congrats on that one. The ones I collected this winter are all branchless but will be chopped back once the new shoots come and I know what I will have to work with.

 

[W3rk]

I think that I'd take off the top third of the tree, that will make it lighter and easier to move around, and get rid of a straight ugly section. Also will leave less top for the roots to feed, so will concentrate the growth. I would leave all the roots that you can. Chop it about an inch above the second branch from the bottom. Seal it. What kind of soil did you put it in?

Thanks for the suggestions. The soil is a mix of its' own original soil, DE(like Napa 8822), and some pine bark. I'm not going for a full bonsai soil, I'm looking ahead to times when I'll probably need more water retention.

 

[CasAH]

I bought from a fellow club member last Summer. He had it for four years post collection.

He has collected a number, and said that you need to leave at least one branch on the tree when collected.

The species tends to sucker from the base.

 

[discusmike]

Yes,chop everything above the second,your tree has really nice muscles,good luck!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I agree with Judy, and I can see the logic of Osoyoung's suggestions, if you don't mind spending more time growing out the trunk segments chop to the first branch. Using Judy's suggestion the first branch as a branch and second as next trunk segment will get you to a bonsai looking tree a few years quicker. Which will be better depends on your skills, and patience.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I collected a hornbeam spring 2017, and it did produce more suckers from the roots than buds on the trunk. Remove root suckers immediately. They will take over if you keep them.

 

[Soldano666]

Id take it to a couple inches above the second branch, leave some room for hornbeam dieback, I see a nice double trunk after some future cut backs of those leaders. Can always layer the top off later.

 

[W3rk]

I collected a hornbeam spring 2017, and it did produce more suckers from the roots than buds on the trunk. Remove root suckers immediately. They will take over if you keep them.

Thanks for the input Leo. I've studied them in the wild and I've seen some with no suckers and others with tons of them. Seemed a bit random. But I will look out for and remove any suckers asap.

For now I left the trunk chop high, leaving the 4 main branches, though I cut all of the branching back a bit, but left a number of this seasons pre-leaf buds. My thought being to cut back enough that the roots can support the branching, but to hopefully leaf out well enough to generate good energy for recovery.

Long term I will cut it down to above the 2nd branch to reduce the size closer to my target. Or possibly even cut down to above the first branch. Plenty of time to consider those cuts while I let it recover, get new branching and get healthy.

 

[Hyn Patty]

Nice thread. Hornbeams are among some of my favorites and I keep looking out for a nice one to try to collect myself. I'll keep people's tips about suckers and the like in mind.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Thanks for the input Leo. I've studied them in the wild and I've seen some with no suckers and others with tons of them. Seemed a bit random. But I will look out for and remove any suckers asap.

For now I left the trunk chop high, leaving the 4 main branches, though I cut all of the branching back a bit, but left a number of this seasons pre-leaf buds. My thought being to cut back enough that the roots can support the branching, but to hopefully leaf out well enough to generate good energy for recovery.

Long term I will cut it down to above the 2nd branch to reduce the size closer to my target. Or possibly even cut down to above the first branch. Plenty of time to consider those cuts while I let it recover, get new branching and get healthy.

Okay
That might have been my plan until after I collected a few trees and grew them for 5+ years. A couple things. The beauty, benefit, whatever, of collecting in spring BEFORE buds leaf out is when the buds do leaf out, the tree will only open buds it has sufficient water resources to open. If roots are severely damaged it will open fewer buds and stop at just a few leaves per bud. So it is not necessary to chop back to ''balance'' the roots and tree, the tree can handle that on its own.

That flush of backbudding you get at collection will be the strongest the tree will have. The second chop back a couple years later (if you decide the trunk is too tall) will not give you as vigorous a flush of back budding unless you seriously ''pumped up'' the vigor of the tree before you did the second chop. For what it is worth. I look at a number of my collected trees (only one hornbeam, most are elms) and often say - I wish I had chopped shorter initially. But the upside, is you might decide I want a taller tree out of this hornbeam, which if you did a second chop back might not be needed. Hornbeam can be used for any size bonsai, they are very adaptable.

 

[W3rk]

Okay
That might have been my plan until after I collected a few trees and grew them for 5+ years. A couple things. The beauty, benefit, whatever, of collecting in spring BEFORE buds leaf out is when the buds do leaf out, the tree will only open buds it has sufficient water resources to open. If roots are severely damaged it will open fewer buds and stop at just a few leaves per bud. So it is not necessary to chop back to ''balance'' the roots and tree, the tree can handle that on its own.

That flush of backbudding you get at collection will be the strongest the tree will have. The second chop back a couple years later (if you decide the trunk is too tall) will not give you as vigorous a flush of back budding unless you seriously ''pumped up'' the vigor of the tree before you did the second chop. For what it is worth. I look at a number of my collected trees (only one hornbeam, most are elms) and often say - I wish I had chopped shorter initially. But the upside, is you might decide I want a taller tree out of this hornbeam, which if you did a second chop back might not be needed. Hornbeam can be used for any size bonsai, they are very adaptable.

Hey Leo, thanks for the greet detail and additional feedback. I follow what you are saying and do feel that I should cut it back closer to my later intended height. But now my fear/concern would be too much stress and water loss if I come in with a new lower trunk chop now. Any buds right now are still quite small and only starting to push, so there's that.

 

[rockm]

Thanks for the suggestions. The soil is a mix of its' own original soil, DE(like Napa 8822), and some pine bark. I'm not going for a full bonsai soil, I'm looking ahead to times when I'll probably need more water retention.

Mistake with the soil. BAREROOT the plant of ALL original field soil. Retaining it will slow things down, or possibly kill new roots. In a container, field soil becomes a swamp and prevents new roots from forming...Yes, it is counterintuitive, since the tree has been growing in it all it's life. BUT it hasn't been growing in it in a container. A container is not the ground, drainage isn't as good-as the ground has infinite drainage capabilities. A container is easily clogged.

Complete removal of all field soil is standard practice with Carolina hornbeam, as is drastic root reduction. I do both when I dig them. I typically saw off all the roots within a six or seven inch radius around the trunk and underneath, lift the tree out of the ground, take it home and hose off all the mud. I put newly-collected trees straight into a standard bonsai soil mix and water it in.

Works well. Have had pretty much a 95-99% survival rate with the trees I've collected.

I would also hold off on chopping the tree's trunk to its "final" height. Leave it long and leave all the extensions you have for a couple of years (although what you have is a bit long, I would have removed a third more of all that if I'd collected this). That maximizes the chances for developing new leaders or branching. Being too aggressive with initial reductions also reduces your design options down the road...

Oh, FWIW, Carolina hornbeam are notorious for not closing BIG pruning wounds for years.

 

[W3rk]

Mistake with the soil. BAREROOT the plant of ALL original field soil. Retaining it will slow things down, or possibly kill new roots. In a container, field soil becomes a swamp and prevents new roots from forming...Yes, it is counterintuitive, since the tree has been growing in it all it's life. BUT it hasn't been growing in it in a container. A container is not the ground, drainage isn't as good-as the ground has infinite drainage capabilities. A container is easily clogged.

Complete removal of all field soil is standard practice with Carolina hornbeam, as is drastic root reduction. I do both when I dig them. I typically saw off all the roots within a six or seven inch radius around the trunk and underneath, lift the tree out of the ground, take it home and hose off all the mud. I put newly-collected trees straight into a standard bonsai soil mix and water it in.

Works well. Have had pretty much a 95-99% survival rate with the trees I've collected.

I would also hold off on chopping the tree's trunk to its "final" height. Leave it long and leave all the extensions you have for a couple of years (although what you have is a bit long, I would have removed a third more of all that if I'd collected this). That maximizes the chances for developing new leaders or branching. Being too aggressive with initial reductions also reduces your design options down the road...

Oh, FWIW, Carolina hornbeam are notorious for not closing BIG pruning wounds for years.

Thanks very much for all of the feedback rockm, I appreciate the details. I know about the thin bark and not being as good of a healer as a lot of other deciduous. I think that was part of my reasoning for leaving it the height that I did - I had read about a technique of not fully severing a trunk/branch to help assist with wound healing/callusing over, but again that may not work as well on hornbeam. I also considered that down the road I might airlayer off the top. It's really straight toward the top but has a nice bend near the end. Though I've also heard mixed information/results about airlayering with hornbeam.

Summary consensus definitely says I kept it too big. I'll be more aggressive when I collect my next one or when this one recovers and I work it again.

 

[rockm]

Thanks very much for all of the feedback rockm, I appreciate the details. I know about the thin bark and not being as good of a healer as a lot of other deciduous. I think that was part of my reasoning for leaving it the height that I did - I had read about a technique of not fully severing a trunk/branch to help assist with wound healing/callusing over, but again that may not work as well on hornbeam. I also considered that down the road I might airlayer off the top. It's really straight toward the top but has a nice bend near the end. Though I've also heard mixed information/results about airlayering with hornbeam.

Summary consensus definitely says I kept it too big. I'll be more aggressive when I collect my next one or when this one recovers and I work it again.

Skip the airlayer. Nothing here worth the trouble. For some reason, airlayering has become a bonsai fallback instead of simply chopping and throwing away parts of trees. (I think it has to do with feeling less guilty about the process.) Advice to "why don't you air layer it dude?" is misguided and mostly delusional ;-) Airlayering should be saved for a piece of worthwhile material. Long straight, boring stretches of trunk --even those with one curve at the bottom--aren't worth the trouble. Air layering them doesn't make them less boring and useless.

Chop away guilt free. ;-)

 

[sorce]

Nice thread.

Its even better now!

Sorce