New to bonsai, not to pottery

[thatdirtykid]

Little introduction of myself to this small sub forum.
I went to school for art education a handful of years ago (ok a couple handfuls) and emphasized in ceramics. Toward the end of my time there I decided the bureaucracy of schools may be too much for me, that plus a few other factors I dropped the ED part of the major and finished out as a ceramics major. Toward the end while I prioritized glaze formulation, hand building and large forms I could still never get away from basic tea bowls or teapots being some of my favorite forms. I continued to work out of a community studio a couple years out of school. Starting a family and needing stability the wife and I put our art on hold, sadly that temporary hold became a lot less than temporary. Two years back I surprised her with a craigslist kiln and wheel. We goofed off a little but everything got packed away when we ended up moving soon after.
Bonsai has been of interest to me for a long time but I never jumped in due to lack of ability to prioritize a healthy work life balance, new hobbies were not an option. Well I am making the jump now and its renewed my excitement to get that "studio" back together and learn some new forms. It won't happen too fast but I am not letting the found excitement slip past this time.

I have worked almost entirely in reduction ^10 firings, including salt and soda firing. I have developed a whole catalog of my own recipes as well as favorites from everywhere I could find that will be of no use to me in this new venture. The idea of starting fresh and building a new body of work around ^6 oxidation is overwhelming but I am trying to be excited to allow myself a fresh start instead of picking up where I left off.
I have been reading about bonsai pot function, traditional styling and themes but it's still a fairly foreign direction for me. I am excited to dig through all your threads and absorb as much as I can. Just the little bit I have been reading has allowed old threads information in the back of my mind to start unraveling. Thank you all for that.

I will probably dump some photos of my old work below to complete the introduction and hopefully be a bookmark for myself to look at as reference of where I came from while building this thread as a chronological record of this new direction I hope to take my art. Hopefully no one minds some non-bonsai related pottery and sculpture to dilute the great content here.

 

[thatdirtykid]

Instead of throwing a whole pile of photos, here is a link to an album. The one figure in the album is actually cast not ceramic. The album is just select 3d art I believe ranging from 2007-2010... It really has been a while...

 

[pandacular]

Wow, you've got some really nice stuff! Your glazes would look excellent at the base of a tree. I surely can't say for sure, but it seems like there could be a good deal of financial stability in bonsai ceramics, judging by practically all the hand made American potters being constantly backlogged. Best of luck! I'm excited to see what you make.

 

[thatdirtykid]

@pandacular thank you, I am proud of them and hope to eventually find similar success firing in oxidation. I wish I had realized bonsai was as accessible as it is back when I was trying to subsidize income with pottery, though in 2008-10 the barrier to entry was likely steeper. I would love to build a reduction kiln and bring back the old glazes, maybe I can appease that desire and squeeze in some firing time elsewhere in the future. First I am going to get the skills honed back in and learn what I can about new to me forms. It feels good to be excited about clay again.

 

[Tieball]

Nice glazes.
Nice set-up….I’m grinning at the chair base perched on top of three buckets nested together. Creative solution. Just don’t move abruptly. It works though.

 

[thatdirtykid]

Nice glazes.
Nice set-up….I’m grinning at the chair base perched on top of three buckets nested together. Creative solution. Just don’t move abruptly. It works though.

I was quite a bit younger, dumber and more flexible back then. Current me would make a trip to the hardware store and figure out a better platform...

 

[19Mateo83]

Welcome to the forum! There is quite a few here that work with ceramics. @HorseloverFat , @penumbra , @Pitoon , @sorce , @BrightsideB @vancehanna are just a few that come to mind, there are several others as well. There’s a very deep pool of ceramics knowledge here. You will fit right in

 

[rockm]

Welcome! Always great to see another potter interested in bonsai here!

Your glazes will be great with bonsai. They're understated and not overpowering, yet speak for themselves. That's a good thing for bonsai use and something that many potters just getting in to bonsai don't "get."

Along with the other potters mentioned above, you might do a search on Nao Takutake (@NaoTK ) here for his work. He's doing great stuff.
Other great long-time bonsai potters you might look up on the 'net and here for reference are:
Roy Minarai
Ron Lang
Sara Rayner
Don Gould

This is an exhaustive list of American Bonsai ceramicists

American Bonsai Ceramics

americanbonsaiceramics.com

I would also note that round bonsai pots are fine as far as they go. They're also pretty much a dime a dozen (I say that affectionately, but as a long-time bonsai person, I can say there are A LOT of round bonsai pots),. Rounds tend to be the "go to" for people getting into bonsai pottery since they're akin to bowls and tea ware. That's not a bad thing, but it's limiting--for the potter and for the bonsaiist. Round pots are not all that easy to use with a tree. Rectangles and ovals--shallow and deep--are the sweet spot for most bonsaiists buying pots. Also consider size. Big pots, over 10" wide, and very large pots 15"-25"-- aren't nearly as common as they should be.

One last thing, get out and try to see good and great bonsai and their containers IN PERSON. Join a bonsai club. Go to meetings, explain what you're doing, ask to see members' pots and trees. I'm sure they will be happy to oblige. Actually holding a 300 year-old Kowatari or 150 year old Nakawatari bonsai pot from Japan, or a substantial, well-constructed and designed American or European bonsai pot can be an eye opener. The feel of the clays used, the details (drainage hole location--the most critical part of a bonsai pot is drainage), foot construction, rims, details, etc. can be eye opening.

 

[Colorado]

Instead of throwing a whole pile of photos, here is a link to an album. The one figure in the album is actually cast not ceramic. The album is just select 3d art I believe ranging from 2007-2010... It really has been a while...

Wow! You are obviously a quite talented ceramicist. With those fundamental skills you will be making great bonsai pots in no time!

I see you’re also here in a Colorado - what part of the state are you in? There is a great community of bonsai potters here. I was just talking pottery with some club members at the Rocky Mountain Bonsai Society meeting last night.

 

[thatdirtykid]

Welcome! Always great to see another potter interested in bonsai here!

Your glazes will be great with bonsai. They're understated and not overpowering, yet speak for themselves. That's a good thing for bonsai use and something that many potters just getting in to bonsai don't "get."

Along with the other potters mentioned above, you might do a search on Nao Takutake (@NaoTK ) here for his work. He's doing great stuff.
Other great long-time bonsai potters you might look up on the 'net and here for reference are:
Roy Minarai
Ron Lang
Sara Rayner
Don Gould

This is an exhaustive list of American Bonsai ceramicists

American Bonsai Ceramics

americanbonsaiceramics.com

I would also note that round bonsai pots are fine as far as they go. They're also pretty much a dime a dozen (I say that affectionately, but as a long-time bonsai person, I can say there are A LOT of round bonsai pots),. Rounds tend to be the "go to" for people getting into bonsai pottery since they're akin to bowls and tea ware. That's not a bad thing, but it's limiting--for the potter and for the bonsaiist. Round pots are not all that easy to use with a tree. Rectangles and ovals--shallow and deep--are the sweet spot for most bonsaiists buying pots. Also consider size. Big pots, over 10" wide, and very large pots 15"-25"-- aren't nearly as common as they should be.

One last thing, get out and try to see good and great bonsai and their containers IN PERSON. Join a bonsai club. Go to meetings, explain what you're doing, ask to see members' pots and trees. I'm sure they will be happy to oblige. Actually holding a 300 year-old Kowatari or 150 year old Nakawatari bonsai pot from Japan, or a substantial, well-constructed and designed American or European bonsai pot can be an eye opener. The feel of the clays used, the details (drainage hole location--the most critical part of a bonsai pot is drainage), foot construction, rims, details, etc. can be eye opening.

So far I am drawn to oval and rectangular bonsai pots, but I imagine certain styles likely call for round as well. I think the nature of Bonsai having a front/preferred side lends to pots with a similar energy. I feel like a completely round vessel would lend to viewers being drawn around the piece, which it seems there's pros/cons to that in bonsai. I feel like this will be an exercise in learning the rules before pushing the limits of them.

I have been bouncing 3 pretty different techniques/styles I am likely to start dabbling with looking for a direction I would want to take a new body of work towards. Possibly could build a theme that allows me to tie these styles into a cohesive body not appear like work from 3 separate artists.

Slab built rectangular pots that are more on the ornamental side with detailed feet and bold lips
Wheel thrown cylinders stretched to oval with slab bottoms with cut feet.
Asymmetrical organic/stone pinched and/or faceted much like the really raw tea bowls in the gallery I shared.

 

[thatdirtykid]

Wow! You are obviously a quite talented ceramicist. With those fundamental skills you will be making great bonsai pots in no time!

I see you’re also here in a Colorado - what part of the state are you in? There is a great community of bonsai potters here. I was just talking pottery with some club members at the Rocky Mountain Bonsai Society meeting last night.

We will see how fast and how much comes back to me, I was in the studio like it was my full time job back then. The dabbling I have done in-between somewhat feels foreign, much like when I try to jump on a skateboard with my kids. Sure I can do a lot of what I used to, but it just doesn't feel fluid like it did when I was 20.
I am in the front range, specifically Longmont and would love to check out some events eventually. Like most things I am diving in head first and allowing a new hobby to take more bandwidth than I probably should . I hear there's a bonsai specific shop a bikes ride away from me, Harmony Bonsai in Hygine, but cannot find much info about them.

 

[rockm]

So far I am drawn to oval and rectangular bonsai pots, but I imagine certain styles likely call for round as well. I think the nature of Bonsai having a front/preferred side lends to pots with a similar energy. I feel like a completely round vessel would lend to viewers being drawn around the piece, which it seems there's pros/cons to that in bonsai. I feel like this will be an exercise in learning the rules before pushing the limits of them.

I have been bouncing 3 pretty different techniques/styles I am likely to start dabbling with looking for a direction I would want to take a new body of work towards. Possibly could build a theme that allows me to tie these styles into a cohesive body not appear like work from 3 separate artists.

Slab built rectangular pots that are more on the ornamental side with detailed feet and bold lips
Wheel thrown cylinders stretched to oval with slab bottoms with cut feet.
Asymmetrical organic/stone pinched and/or faceted much like the really raw tea bowls in the gallery I shared.

"I feel like a completely round vessel would lend to viewers being drawn around the piece, which it seems there's pros/cons to that in bonsai."

You would think that but it doesn't work that way practically. One reason is simple space needed to view a tree from all sides. Three feet away from it in a circle around the tree. Physically, devoting that much space simply doesn't make sense in smaller gardens, or even larger ones for that matter. The biggest reason is no tree looks its best (or even good) from more than one or two angles. That's because many trees are "foreshortened" by having their apex bend toward the viewer from the primary viewing side--the top of the tree literally "bows" towards the viewer giving the visual impression that tree towers over the viewer as in nature. That angle, viewed from the side, simply looks odd.

FWIW, overly ornamental pots are also extremely hard to use effectively, or much at all. I've worked with several potters over the years who have tried to get into making bonsai pots. More than a couple became frustrated because they made it all about their pots. They made complex, visually-appealing things, but no bonsai person would buy them because the pots screamed "look at me. I'm special." The potters got miffed because "no one appreciated" them...The hard truth of bonsai is that pots support the tree, physically and functionally. Great bonsai pots do that extremely well, but don't make a show of it. I've always thought good bonsai pots are kind of like a moonshiner's car--plain paint, functional wheels to throw the cops off, but a subtle rumble under the hood that hints there's more to it. The most difficult challenge in finding a bonsai pot is to balance all of that. The best bonsai pots "say" things without "saying" them too loud.

 

[thatdirtykid]

"I feel like a completely round vessel would lend to viewers being drawn around the piece, which it seems there's pros/cons to that in bonsai."

You would think that but it doesn't work that way practically. One reason is simple space needed to view a tree from all sides. Three feet away from it in a circle around the tree. Physically, devoting that much space simply doesn't make sense in smaller gardens, or even larger ones for that matter. The biggest reason is no tree looks its best (or even good) from more than one or two angles. That's because many trees are "foreshortened" by having their apex bend toward the viewer from the primary viewing side--the top of the tree literally "bows" towards the viewer giving the visual impression that tree towers over the viewer as in nature. That angle, viewed from the side, simply looks odd.

FWIW, overly ornamental pots are also extremely hard to use effectively, or much at all. I've worked with several potters over the years who have tried to get into making bonsai pots. More than a couple became frustrated because they made it all about their pots. They made complex, visually-appealing things, but no bonsai person would buy them because the pots screamed "look at me. I'm special." The potters got miffed because "no one appreciated" them...The hard truth of bonsai is that pots support the tree, physically and functionally. Great bonsai pots do that extremely well, but don't make a show of it. I've always thought good bonsai pots are kind of like a moonshiner's car--plain paint, functional wheels to throw the cops off, but a subtle rumble under the hood that hints there's more to it. The most difficult challenge in finding a bonsai pot is to balance all of that. The best bonsai pots "say" things without "saying" them too loud.

That is a great way to put to words and elaborate my thoughts on the round vessels. I was not saying pulling the mind around the tree is inherently a positive. I think what I am questioning, and could ask you directly: does a round vessel, whether there is space to be viewed in 360 or not, create tension by aiding the mind in curiosity of what it looks like from the other side? I think my preference (which I admit is based in minimal experience) toward oval or rectangular pots comes from having a a side to anchor the viewer defining exactly which angle is the front as well as the depth you get from asymmetry. I see that asymmetry can come from planting off center in a bilateral symmetrical vessel or the vessel itself is asymmetrical to compliment the movement of the tree.

The idea that the pot serves a purpose, functionally and visually, instead of being the focal point on its own is very appealing to me. I have personally viewed trees as the pinnacle of organic natural beauty most of my life with them being a common theme in my art as well as enjoyment of nature and the act of pairing something inorganic with them to enhance the natural beauty in a complimentary way is exciting. That balance is the objective, if I want to make art for arts sake I would stick to sculpture or teapots.

 

[rockm]

That is a great way to put to words and elaborate my thoughts on the round vessels. I was not saying pulling the mind around the tree is inherently a positive. I think what I am questioning, and could ask you directly: does a round vessel, whether there is space to be viewed in 360 or not, create tension by aiding the mind in curiosity of what it looks like from the other side? I think my preference (which I admit is based in minimal experience) toward oval or rectangular pots comes from having a a side to anchor the viewer defining exactly which angle is the front as well as the depth you get from asymmetry. I see that asymmetry can come from planting off center in a bilateral symmetrical vessel or the vessel itself is asymmetrical to compliment the movement of the tree.

The idea that the pot serves a purpose, functionally and visually, instead of being the focal point on its own is very appealing to me. I have personally viewed trees as the pinnacle of organic natural beauty most of my life with them being a common theme in my art as well as enjoyment of nature and the act of pairing something inorganic with them to enhance the natural beauty in a complimentary way is exciting. That balance is the objective, if I want to make art for arts sake I would stick to sculpture or teapots.

" whether there is space to be viewed in 360 or not create tension by aiding the mind in curiosity of what it looks like from the other side?"

Not really. It's adding complications to a rather simple visual equation. Do you wonder what the other side of this tree in the photo below looks like from the water's edge looking back? You might, but that view is probably not half as interesting as the composition chosen by the photographer (or he/she would have taken THAT photo). Same for bonsai.

The perspective of a bonsai composition is chosen by the bonsaiist, not the tree. Sure the bonsaiist can futz around trying to make every tree visually appealing from an y angle (and most of us at least try to make trees presentable from all around) but there is ALWAYS an angle that is MOST appealing in all of that. The viewer trusts the artist to present that angle. Being ambiguous about things doesn't create tension so much as frustration. Sure, some folks think that having to search for the best angle is fun, most don't.

 

[ShadyStump]

" whether there is space to be viewed in 360 or not create tension by aiding the mind in curiosity of what it looks like from the other side?"

Not really. It's adding complications to a rather simple visual equation. Do you wonder what the other side of this tree in the photo below looks like from the water's edge looking back? You might, but that view is probably not half as interesting as the composition chosen by the photographer (or he/she would have taken THAT photo). Same for bonsai.

The perspective of a bonsai composition is chosen by the bonsaiist, not the tree. Sure the bonsaiist can futz around trying to make every tree visually appealing from an y angle (and most of us at least try to make trees presentable from all around) but there is ALWAYS an angle that is MOST appealing in all of that. The viewer trusts the artist to present that angle. Being ambiguous about things doesn't create tension so much as frustration. Sure, some folks think that having to search for the best angle is fun, most don't.

Hey, Lake Crescent, I've been there, I saw those trees!
That was before my bonsai life, though, or I'd have a snarky comment.

While the title on the pic says trees, they are obviously not the focus of the image presented, but the frame. This particular image leaves you wondering what's across the lake.
In bonsai, you can easily achieve the curiosity part of the equation by simply having a major branch in the composition come from the far side of the trunk where you can't see it's beginnings. Similar effects can be achieved in pottery. Both require chosing a "front" at the outset, and making that front plane to the viewer.
In my previous example, this is where the strategic inclusion of imperfection comes in. If the viewer steps around the tree and finds that the branch merely curves around to be in view from the front, they are disappointed to find nothing interesting. However, if they find that the branch in fact shoots straight from the side of a substantial burl, the viewer is met with even more questions and more curiosity, and is now taken with the tree and it's story.
Thank God for hardliners in bonsai, stomping their feet over every rule, or else this effect would be even harder to achieve.
...

Congratulations, y'all just got me droning on like an art snob. That's a feat!
...

Also, @thatdirtykid...
DUUDE! You're only a day trip away from me in stead of weekend trip like all the other Coloradans!
Sweet!

 

[Tieball]

I was quite a bit younger, dumber and more flexible back then. Current me would make a trip to the hardware store and figure out a better platform...

I totally enjoyed the ingenuity behind that setup.

 

[rockm]

A classic example of why "3-D" bonsai is limiting. This is one of my favorite bonsai in the National Bonsai and Penjing Museum. It is a "foemina" Juniper (not an inside joke, but a reality ) Mas Moriguchi uses forced perspective not only with the path narrowing at the back, but with the every shortening trees in the composition. The full effect of viewing it from Moriguchi's chosen front is lost from almost any other angle.

Note that the "container" a slab is an oval, giving anchor points to the side that emphasize the center. There are some trees that can work in round containers, but not many. This would lose most of its visual appeal in a round pot or even on a round slab.