New Mugo's

[jaymobonsai]

Hi everyone,

I'm new(ish) to bonsai and was hoping to get some feedback on two Mugo's I'm working with (perhaps Vance and others can weigh in). They are newly acquired (in rough shape) reduced price box store purchases. They were potted in a crappy clay/sand mix. I've cut back the roots by 30% and repotted them in healthy garden soil for recovery purposes in 2 gallon containers. So this leads to my first question:

1. Is it best to immediately get these guys in just good ol' fashioned quality garden soil, or should I be potting in bonsai soil out of the gate (It's obviously too late now, but good to know for the future as I plan on collecting a few more Mugo's)?

I've done some research on Mugo's and have read Vance's and Hans' articles. I've also read some posts where Vance recommends cutting back no more than 50% of top growth. So I've done this and chose to cut behind the new candles into what I would assume is the tip of last years growth, being careful to leave needles behind for back budding. Now I'm questioning if my cuts where made in the right place.

2. Where is the best place to cut?
3. Is what I've done enough for this year?
4. What should I have done different?

I've been trying to attach pictures without success. I've contacted the webmaster in hopes of resolving this issue, so I may have some pics to attach in the future.

 

[Vance Wood]

Some photographs would go a long way in helping with this post.

 

[jaymobonsai]

OK, looks like I have something working for pics. In the third image you can see where I've highlighted some tips that were covered in sap and many candles seemed to be choked out and dead (black candles). These I removed but tried to leave some that may recover.

 

[tmmason10]

I don't think anyone here will tell you nursery soil is the way to go. Way too many dying bonsai threads about water retentive soil. I'm guessing you hav missed you mugo repotting timeframe but Vance will know better.

 

[Vance Wood]

For the sake of anyone reading this and have not yet done anything to their trees I say thank you. In reference to this particular post I am left dumbfounded. I don't know where to start.

First of all looking at what you have this tree planted in I am forced to question whether there are drain holes in the bottom. To me they look like buckets, in which case the tree is doomed. The soil as you pointed out is garden soil????? The tree is probably doomed, not enough drainage or airiation. You have already removed X amount of foliage and I am not sure where you are going with this tree. The fact that you have already done all of this I am not sure if what we do now won't put the nails in the coffin.

Not meaning to be rude or mean spirited. I care about this species of tree, I really do, but if you want me to help you with it please give me the respect of waiting before you butcher the tree to ask me about what to do; not after the deed is done.

I know I have written a lot about this tree and many OP's post that they have read all of it, but then I look at this and realize if you read what I wrote you understood very little or you understood what you wanted to, or I did not make things clear.

Returning to this tree. If you indeed planted this tree in garden soil you need to remove the tree from that mess and get it into a decent bonsai soil that drains water away from the roots like a sieve. Do not remove any more of the original soil but plant the tree into a container that has good drainege and a decent bonsai soil and leave it alone till sometimes next summer.

 

[jaymobonsai]

For the sake of anyone reading this and have not yet done anything to their trees I say thank you. In reference to this particular post I am left dumbfounded. I don't know where to start.

First of all looking at what you have this tree planted in I am forced to question whether there are drain holes in the bottom. To me they look like buckets, in which case the tree is doomed. The soil as you pointed out is garden soil????? The tree is probably doomed, not enough drainage or airiation. You have already removed X amount of foliage and I am not sure where you are going with this tree. The fact that you have already done all of this I am not sure if what we do now won't put the nails in the coffin.

Not meaning to be rude or mean spirited. I care about this species of tree, I really do, but if you want me to help you with it please give me the respect of waiting before you butcher the tree to ask me about what to do; not after the deed is done.

I know I have written a lot about this tree and many OP's post that they have read all of it, but then I look at this and realize if you read what I wrote you understood very little or you understood what you wanted to, or I did not make things clear.

Returning to this tree. If you indeed planted this tree in garden soil you need to remove the tree from that mess and get it into a decent bonsai soil that drains water away from the roots like a sieve. Do not remove any more of the original soil but plant the tree into a container that has good drainege and a decent bonsai soil and leave it alone till sometimes next summer.

Despite the comments being somewhat disheartening, I guess I probably deserve it. Like most beginners I think my biggest flaw is lack of patience. As soon as I got the trees I was concerned about their health (more than likely unduly concerned), and obviously did more harm than good. And it would also appear based on your comments that I'm misapplying information provided by yourself and other sources. For this I apologize as I imagine it's frustrating for many veterans to watch new enthusiasts fumble along and make a mockery of the art. I'm trying hard to read as much as I can, but I'm obviously misapplying the information.

Vance, at the risk of having my head bit off, would you be willing critique the errors I made regarding the foliage if we were to assume I didn't butcher the repotting?

I really do apologize for not waiting for your feedback before taking action. But I am eager to learn moving forward.

Thanks,
Jay

 

[Dav4]

Hey, Jay. Please fill in your user CP and let us all know where you and your tree hail from. Location can play an important role in the timing of many bonsai related tasks.

PS from the pictures, your tree seems to have a pretty nice trunk. Let's figure out how to keep it alive until next year...either in a pot or planted in your yard, if possible...and then we can can discuss design and pruning options. Good luck with it.

 

[jaymobonsai]

Hey, Jay. Please fill in your user CP and let us all know where you and your tree hail from. Location can play an important role in the timing of many bonsai related tasks.

PS from the pictures, your tree seems to have a pretty nice trunk. Let's figure out how to keep it alive until next year...either in a pot or planted in your yard, if possible...and then we can can discuss design and pruning options. Good luck with it.

I'm in Fredericton, NB, Canada (eastern Canada). Obviously a colder climate than the majority of forum members deal with.

I'll need to determine the best bonsai soil to use if potting it is the best option. I don't have local options for purchasing premixed soil, so anything purchased would have to be done online, or mixed myself.

Thanks!

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Vance is probably jealous of that honking trunk you picked up, but the soil does not look like a good pine soil. It does look like you have a yard, so for best chances at survival plant it back in the ground or maybe in a raised bed with a bag of expanded shale and/or turface mixed in and under. Be as gentle with the roots as possible. Hopefully it will pull through and in the mean time get a bunch of volunteer elms, maples etc.

Now write "why the earth is not like a pot" 50 times on the blackboard...
Or just google it and link to all the other great articles by Brent

 

[monza]

In case you wondered about who Brent is:
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/
Great site to read.

 

[Vance Wood]

Despite the comments being somewhat disheartening, I guess I probably deserve it. Like most beginners I think my biggest flaw is lack of patience. As soon as I got the trees I was concerned about their health (more than likely unduly concerned), and obviously did more harm than good. And it would also appear based on your comments that I'm misapplying information provided by yourself and other sources. For this I apologize as I imagine it's frustrating for many veterans to watch new enthusiasts fumble along and make a mockery of the art. I'm trying hard to read as much as I can, but I'm obviously misapplying the information.

Vance, at the risk of having my head bit off, would you be willing critique the errors I made regarding the foliage if we were to assume I didn't butcher the repotting?

I really do apologize for not waiting for your feedback before taking action. But I am eager to learn moving forward.

Thanks,
Jay

I didn't mean to come down on you so much as feeling driven to vent my frustration. You have no idea how many years of criticism and condemnation I have had to endure because of my love for the Mugo Pine. Now all of a sudden I encounter all of these people that have this sudden interest in the tree supposedly because of my writings about the tree. But still even with the interest I see so many go ahead and do all kinds of things many of which are wrong, then turn around and ask what I think???

All that aside the major critique I have of this tree is the soil you have it in. Do you have any idea what a bonsai mix is? Garden soil almost always fails as a soil for a bonsai. Also as I said earlier it looks to me that you have this tree in a container without drain holes in the bottom of the pot.

The rest of the stuff is meaningless if we don't get this tree to a point where it will survive. Like it or not this tree has to be removed from this garden soil or the roots are going to rot.

 

[jaymobonsai]

To start with, thanks to everyone for the feedback. And to monza for the link to the Evergreen Garden works site... particularly the article you mentioned. Up to this point I had never thought critically as to how a tree (or any plant for that matter) functions in a pot. I always assumed the majority of moisture loss in soil was due to evaporation, not consumption.

The containers I have them in do have drain holes in them, but that may be irrelevant if what we're saying is the soil is inadequate. So that's my first objective.

Vance, I've heard many versions of what makes a good bonsai mix, but I certainly can't tell you from personal experience what works for me as I have yet to use a bonsai mix. I find the soil issue very confusing as everyone suggests something different. I suppose the most important thing is to understand what each components function is, then I'll know why it's being used. Can I get some suggestions as to what an ideal soil is for the mugo? As I don't have such ingredients as akadama readily available locally, it would be nice to find something that I can put together myself. I see Brent recommends a mix of fir bark, perlite, peat, vermiculite (optional) for a general mix. Perhaps I can get some suggestions.

Thanks,
Jay

 

[Vance Wood]

I have mentioned soil so I guess we can all go fishing, I'll open the can of worms. You can look at it like this, or let's say I look at it like this. Garden soil, packaged soil from garden centers and any dirt you may have collected at midnight by the light of the full Moon fifty miles away are all, for the most part, useless for bonsai.

It is necessary to understand that there are really only three elements to a bonsai soil. Some sort of substrate that provides the bulk of material the tree will grow in. Some sort of material that will promote the growth of beneficial biotics. Some sort of grit that will prevent the interaction between the first and second elements from becoming, for lack of a better term, cement.

The first element: This is what the bulk or foundation of a soil mix is made of. There are several ways to achieve this. First of all you have to use products that will not break down and become mud or mucus in a couple of years. Most people use some form of calcined clay, a product that looks a lot like old fashioned Kitty Litter, but it is not Kitty Litter. Most common for is called Turface. It is used for base ball infields because it is slow to turn to mud.

The second element, and this is what I use, is composted Pine Bark. It is sold in the nursery trade around here as composted garden mulch but if you read the bag it is indeed composted Pine Bark. Some people will complain that it is too fine. Don't worry about it, the next choice of elements will keep the Pine bark from becoming compacted.

The third element is the grit portion. This can be Red Lava gravel, #2 or #3 swimming pool filter sand or sand blasting sand, does not matter it is the same product.

The mix: For my basic mix I use two parts substarte, one part organic and one part grit all by volume. Cup, quart, gallon no matter it is the proportions that are important. This will give you a good and realiable mix you can fool around with, add to, etc. This mix is my standard go to mix for most conifers.

You may find a host of different formulas, mixes and siftings but at least when all is said and done you will be aware of the fact that garden dirt won't cut it.

Forget about Akadama, it is for the most part similar to any other calcined clay like Turface but costs three times as much. The soil I have pointed out to you works and has been working for me for the past thirty years since I developed it. Yes there are probably better soil mixes and volumes of information why they are better, but this one is simple, cheap and duplicatable almost anywhere you live.