New Japanese Maple from nursery, Seeking opinions on where to go from here!!!!!!!

[Cypress]

Hey all!

So I snagged this JM from lowes for 30 dollars... 75% off since it was looking a little rough. Probably because they were keeping it in full sun and the soil was bone dry. But anyways... I got this one because the root base/nebari is absolutely beautiful and the trunk is nice and thick. As you'll see in the pictures.

It does appear that there is a graft line near the base of the trunk and so I mainly want peoples opinions on whether I should stick with the trunk and leave the graft, or if I should chop it all the way down below the graft and grow it out from there. I can be patient and it could be worth it given how nice the nebari are.

As you can see in the pictures there is already growth sprouting out from below the graft line (probably because the tree was distressed). So I could use that as a leader.

It stands about 7 feet tall right now and the trunk at the base is something between 3 and 4 inches.

What do you all think? And any other advice I may be overlooking would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!!!!!

 

[edprocoat]

Nice looking base on the tree. I don't know anything about Maples really, just wanted to ask is it common to graft a trident maple. I know they do it with many of the Japanese varieties, I just have never heard of it with a Trident before.

ed

 

[Cypress]

No, this is definitely a japanese maple, not a trident... I would assume the root stock is a japanese maple of a different cultivar. It's little leaves popping out look like a JM to me. The trunk is so thick it makes me sad to think of chopping it all the way down almost to the stump in order to let that little leader form a new trunk... But the roots are so nice and well established I feel the new leader would grow rather quickly?

I suppose I just don't know what cultivar of JM the root stock is. I'd be totally fine with a green leafed variety.

 

[edprocoat]

Lol, I have no idea where I came up with "Trident Maple" from. I guess when I read this post I had Trident on my mind.

ed

 

[Jason_mazzy]

If this were mine I would cut to the base and let that sucker become the tree. I am doing that now on some old grafted maples I had in the yard. WHY? Because you will have a big base and quickly create dramatic taper and likely the green leaf variety will have smaller nicer leaves.

 

[Eric Group]

No, this is definitely a japanese maple, not a trident... I would assume the root stock is a japanese maple of a different cultivar. It's little leaves popping out look like a JM to me. The trunk is so thick it makes me sad to think of chopping it all the way down almost to the stump in order to let that little leader form a new trunk... But the roots are so nice and well established I feel the new leader would grow rather quickly?

I suppose I just don't know what cultivar of JM the root stock is. I'd be totally fine with a green leafed variety.

Looks like a "Blood Good" top grafted onto a basic green bottom, pretty typical. The thing that is not typical about this one is that the graft is almost invisible, if I am looking at the pics right! Normally, the big box Maples have a nasty scar, sometimes with a big knob of wood sticking out the side... This one is about as clean as you will find it from a store like that. If it looks this good in real life, I would recommend you use it as is and save your self a decade of growing out a nebari for an air layer..

Of course you can always air layer the top Blood Good off, and chop down to the graft and use that lower stock. How high is the graft line? Is there enough trunk below it to work with at all? You could go for a broom style, and get something worth keeping out of the top if the air layer takes...
Wind up with two tress from one! Hell, if you get some root tone, you might be able to chop out a couple dozen trees off that top if you can get the cuttings to take... Depends on what you are going for.

Regardless it is hard to tell from a couple pics what might work.. But this is a big tree that could spark a whole mess of maples if you treat it right. I have one little green mample cutting I bought about 7-8 years ago when it was a pencil thin stick shooting up out of a pot. From that tree I have spawned four or five nice cuttings/ air layers- two of which are being styled currently and a couple more that are still in the ground... The original cutting I bought was going to be a bonsai, but I stuck it in the ground in front of my rental home to grow, and it got so darn beautiful I had to leave it when I moved out! It is about 4-5 inches at the base now and prolly 8 feet tall... Filled out beautifully and has a great shape now... So, again itis all in what you plan to do with it man. I know I just threw about 3 options and a lengthy story at you, but you can literally do anything wih a tree like this! As easy as it is to air layer a branch and make a couple cuttings, I feel it is a shame to chop a tree like this all the way to the ground. Might want to practice some on a few cuttings you get at no cost before you go hard core on a big old tree like this!

If you have any questions about taking cuttings or air layers, just ask- plenty of experts here... Already plenty of threads that will show you how and a quick web search could show you what's up too...

Good luck, have fun and don't chop it til you have a plan and for the love of goodness don't chop it during he wrong season!

 

[Cypress]

Looks like a "Blood Good" top grafted onto a basic green bottom, pretty typical. The thing that is not typical about this one is that the graft is almost invisible, if I am looking at the pics right! Normally, the big box Maples have a nasty scar, sometimes with a big knob of wood sticking out the side... This one is about as clean as you will find it from a store like that. If it looks this good in real life, I would recommend you use it as is and save your self a decade of growing out a nebari for an air layer!

Yea totally, I really appreciate your input. The grafting scar is quite subtle and doesn't really throw off the taper. I have been leaning towards chopping it down to the parent plant since even the slightest graft scar isn't appealing to me. (the graft scar is probably about 2" above the soil line and already has new growth sprouting). BUT I don't see the harm in trying out an air layer or two above the graft so I could get one or two bloodgood bonsai out of it before chopping it down.

My only concern is that I've heard red leafed varieties can take much longer to develop roots while airlayering? I recently attempted an airlayer on a JM 'shaina' which stayed alive for quite some time but I was out of town for a few days and I think the heat killed the whole top of the tree. (though when I removed the plastic and sphagnum I did see that small root buds had started to form.) I'm just hesitat to to start air layering and have that happen again when I could just get to work developing an graft-free trunk with beautiful root structure.

The other thing is that the tree isn't in peak health. A fair number of the leaves are withered. Though it's not too bad. But I'm not sure that's an ideal condition for an air layer to be applied...

Decisions, decisions, decision!

Any feedback on my thoughts here?

Thanks so much for your input!

 

[Cypress]

OH, and if I were to do a major chop on this guy, when would be the right season? though it's summer it's been incredibly rainy in upstate NY, and colling down a bit (70's)...

 

[Eric Group]

I probably wouldn't do much with it this year honestly.

The shriveled leaves are probably more of a cosmetic thing than a real problem, assuming it was just a slight dry out/ over heat that brought on the leaf die back. As long as the tree is healthy now, the damaged leaves will probably drop soon, and be replaced with new ones... Depends on your weather I guess. Here in SC, I feel pretty confident I could get new growth this season from that tree this year. In NY, I can't be sure if Fall will come before you get any real good new shoots...

I think the best time to chop it... Probably late winter or early early Spring before the sap starts running good. Get some paste on it when you do it though, that will be a huge scar!

Yeah the roots are not quite as strong on many red varieties, but the Blood Good is not quite as temperamental as most the lace leaf varieties... I am actually dumbfounded by the fact they graft them so much! They can grow just fine on their own roots usually... I have only tried an air layer on one once, and my roommate dog chewed it off for me, so I am afraid I have little advice there! But... If you were going to chop it anyway, why not try so ring before you chop it?

 

[Cypress]

Yea, thanks for the info on bloodgood air layers, good to know. Yes, the tree is definitely healthy, it had just been neglected. The temp here is hovering around 80-75 for the rest of the week. Stays pretty hot through the end of august. If I decided to forgo the air layering and go for the big chop now, and put some good cut paste on it do you think it would be fine? I know you're a ways away down in SC, but it stays relatively warm til the end of september here and I think it would develop a few decent shoots, especially with one already growing from the root stock... before winter rolls around.

(Basically I'm very eager to start work on this beautiful trunk base, haha)

But of course the art of bonsai is the art of patience.

 

[Cypress]

I've decided to do one air layer befor I chop all the way down to the root stock. If it works out I'll have a bloodgood already with a 2" trunk... Here we go!

 

[0soyoung]

I recently attempted an airlayer on a JM 'shaina' which stayed alive for quite some time but I was out of town for a few days and I think the heat killed the whole top of the tree.

Did the bark of your tree, from the bottom of the girdle to the node below, turn brown/black? If so, it almost certainly had nothing to do with heat, but was a hormonal thing (e.g., auxin flow) with the mother plant.

 

[Cypress]

Did the bark of your tree, from the bottom of the girdle to the node below, turn brown/black? If so, it almost certainly had nothing to do with heat, but was a hormonal thing (e.g., auxin flow) with the mother plant.

It did not, I actually ended up chopping it to the stump to see if the mother JM will sprout anything. Roots seem to be very much alive, so we'll see. But I'm not banking on it...

 

[Cypress]

UPDATE:

Just put an air layer in place. Branch is just over 2" thick probably where I placed it, so if the layer takes it could end up being really great stock. This is my second attempt to air layer. The first time I used the plastic/sphagnum method. Didn't really work out and it seemed sloppy, but disclaimer: it was my first time every trying to rig that up.

This time I'm going with the pot method, shown in "The Complete Book of Bonsai". The soil I made for it is pretty much a 50/50 mix of potting soil and sphagnum. So the sphagnum should really help it stay moist. But since I'm not going with the plastic method, I'll be sure to water it everyday. Also loaded up the cut with rooting hormone.

We'll see what happens!