Need some help on Elm

[j evans]

This is a tree that I got from a friend years ago. The first photo shows it 04-2012 probably after I owned it a year or so.


Here is the concept drawing


After much thought and some input from others I made a cut

After refining that cut a bit and "I can't believe it has been three years" letting it thicken, this is what I have today


Here is the cut and that buds that I have around it.



Here is a top view



I am looking for some input but a couple of the questions that I have are, if it let both buds around the cut grow is that going to be too many branches right in that area? Is the second section of the trunk thickened enough to move onto the next step, I was planning on hollowing out the cut, should that be done now or do you have another suggestion?

The tree is currently about 12" tall but of course that is going to change.

Thanks
Jamie

 

[sorce]

I wouldn't carve it till That branch can take the wallop. Maybe next spring.

I would leave just one big bud.

I think the first image could have been refined. I really like how the trunks and roots do the same dance!

I think the current could be cut back to mid garage door panel.

Sorce

 

[johng]

I would leave the buds...at this stage you need as many choices as possible...who knows when something gets broken or damaged...let them both grow and make a decision down the road a little ways...

I think you have enough thickening to go ahead and chop again...the trunk growth will slow but as you develop more apex branches the transition will continue to improve...

You can hollow out the scar at about any point...

All that said, and knowing that the tree is already down the road...I much preferred the naturalness of the before photo...could have used a little work but had a nice feel to it... For me your concept image appears to be trying to make an elm look like a mature pine

 

[Smoke]

For the life of me I can't figure out why people that have natural bones wish to chop the crap out of stuff to make it look artificial. I am hoping I live long enough to own a good natural looking tree, that looks like a tree, and not a Japanese wanna be....

Good luck to ya..

 

[j evans]

So I guess from what I've got is that the tree looked good and could have been refined from the original image. I did not know that what I had wasn't that bad. Being a beginner I used others information and advice to do what I did. I take responsibility but now I have to work with what I have and I do not know what that step is. That is why I am asking for opinions on what to do, of which I will think about a bit harder than I did three years ago. Thank

 

[Smoke]

OK, so first off have you read about chopping 101 I wrote in the articles section? If not, no big deal, I write them to be ignored anyway. John is correct, the next section is ready for a chop to keep the transition proportionate. Here is one tip that I can pass on that I hope everyone will be able to use, do not chop elms in the active growing season. Time that kind of work for winter and prepare the tree for the chop while dormant and then let it grow and make a any subsequent chops during the heat of summer when the tree slows down. Elms are notorious for swelling at the chop. All of the activity that will be condensed there will begin swelling within a week of chopping as all the fluids swell there. Then the branches start to come out and then there is a huge bulge there.

The huge knob at the end of your leader is a good example of this anomoly. The style you have drawn in your plan is paint by number so just make the chops needed to make the image, grow some branches on it and, Voila!

 

[Smoke]

So, make the chop short. This will have to be a small tree based on what you have for a trunk. Only let the new leader grow for about 6 months and begin making the apex out of chosen leaders. The red arrows of course are where branches must be for classical moyogi form. The blue areas are where there must also be back branches poking thru when seen from the front. The most important part will be getting that first branch started. It needs to be on there ASAP or you will have to hold back the second branches already budded from the chop.

Easy peasy.

 

[edprocoat]

So you took a nice well ramified tree with maybe a year or two work to make it special and turned it into a 10 year project ?

ed

 

[edprocoat]

This may have been easier, at least what I would have done.

ElmMistake by edprocoat, on Flickr

BTW, I love the Neagari on this tree !

ed

 

[jk_lewis]

Truly helpful, Ed.

 

[j evans]

Ed - Just starting out and trying to learn I took a tree that I thought looked "good" not great and posted it on a website and solicited advice. I heard comments such as "nice trunk", "why is the tree sitting so high", "why have you let the branches grow so long and lanky" and so on. I tried to look at the tree and see what they are seeing. The plan was presented and it appealed to me to have a smaller, neater, compact tree that may be a little more original than like the virtual that you presented above. Did I make an error in my decision? Some people are telling me so and I have to accept responsibility for that but I would assume that most if not all people on this board and almost anyone working with plants has made a mistake or two. All I can do is to try to learn from my mistakes and better yet learn from others

Al -

Thank you for all of your help. Yes I have read your article and thank you very much for making that information available. I think that it will be very helpful. I am a bit confused as to the chop though. You note that a chop should be done while the tree is dormant which I understand. I would assume then that this tree is too far into the growing season as the buds have already popped out but you talk about using the bud that has developed along the old chop. Are you saying to go ahead and quickly do a chop this spring? Just want to make sure. Thanks

Jamie

 

[jk_lewis]

Yeah, you made a bit of a mistake (though I doubt that Ed's solution is the one others of us might have chosen) , but we've all done that. At least this mistake is redeemable. Make the next chop. Feed heavily and let LOTS of new sprouts come. Wait before you choose which to keep and which to ditch.

 

[j evans]

Chop now? I was thinking after it had buds it was too late.

 

[M. Frary]

Chop now? I was thinking after it had buds it was too late.

No dude. It's not too late. It will pop buds out all over again and keep on going. It's still early enough for a good whackin'!

 

[Smoke]

Everyone is correct. Now is a good time to chop since it will explode with new buds.....just what you don't want to happen at a new chop site on an elm. Some trees like trident or hornbeam like that will surely pop buds after a chop right now but elms will swell very fast at the chop with the profusion of buds that will grow there. Most other trees, like maples and hornbeams and many others do not grow from an exposed cambium. Elms do, which makes them good candidates for root cuttings. Maples do not grow from exposed cambium and will only push buds from latent terminals at the growth rings. This is why so many people, me included will do a ground layer of a maple and try to grow on another tree by planting the severed root base. It should grow, others do. They don't.

If you chop now, which you can do, plan properly and watch for buds at the chop. Know exactly where you wish there to be a bud and rub off everything except two in the exact area you wish the extension to form. let both extend about one inch and then choose which one will be that leader and only allow that one to grow. Others will pop and try to compete for apex but do not allow any other to extend. This will cut down on building a knob there. Good luck.

 

[edprocoat]

Truly helpful, Ed.

Hey your welcome JKF !

ed

 

[edprocoat]

j evans, that was not to criticize you just to show what I would have done but I like natural looking trees, That is why I am such a fan of Walter Pall. I keep forgetting that Flickr posts when copied here show the name given in this forum. I named it elmmistake as I did not have a way or the talent to draw leaves that looked like an elm and the Gimp foliage brush looks like pine needles. But it was quick and easy. The chop will take some time but will come out the way you direct it. I love the Neagari (exposed roots) style of that tree and the canopy I colored in and the slight angle change looks good to me but its your tree and your decision. And besides JKF don't like my virt so there you go.

ed

 

[Smoke]

 

[sorce]

Chop now? I was thinking after it had buds it was too late.

Hey Jaime,

May I ask where this was posted for said advice?

You got this thing fat as hell in 3 years anyway! You could go right back into that old image if you wanted! It would look even better now!

Feel free to join the Ulmus Selmfie contest!

Sorce

 

[j evans]

Sorce -

I posted on another Bonsai site and I don't know if it helps anything to put that out. I am sure that all the advice that I received was in good faith and I take it that way.

I only fattened that one branch in three years, the trunk was decent size when I got it. That and the roots made it interesting to me.

I will look into the contest.

By the way, the above mentioned chop was completed last night after work and I am excited to see what happens. I really appreciate everyone's help and comments. It is nice to have someone to ask, listen to and learn different perspectives from. We are all going to have some different ideas that's what makes things interesting.

Jamie