Need some feedback please - pine branch selection

[Manbris]

Hi!

Please check my plans - it will be my first branch selection on pines. Not ideal- but these are my younger nursery stocks- aim is to practice my skills and understanding before working on older stocks while respecting the material. Please criticise and advise.

All these are probably around 5 year old pines- all common issues discussed i.e., multiple branches at the junction and straight trunk. My hope is to make them more like bonsai in a pro sense- I accept they may not be eventually so a garden tree will be fine.

Pine 1- dwarf scots pine
Plan-
1. main trunk chop above the red line or chop all side branches above the red line and let it grow- timeline this Nov or Feb (does it matter)?
2. also reduce branches from 4 to 2 at the first whorl - the green ones circled - this fall or feb next year?
3. for similar material- am I missing anything? It is strong and fed heavy this year.



Pine 2- normal scots pine
Plan-
1. main trunk chop in Nov/Dec above red line or all side branches above the red line same timeline? only keep the two branches below the line
2.can we use the circled green small branches as future branches
3. what do we do with the whorl - reverse tapper - carving can solve it? or any other methods?



Thanks as always - do not have a club yet due to work/family so relying on this forum for now.

 

[Manbris]

Any other things I miss in planning this?

 

[Shibui]

1. main trunk chop above the red line or chop all side branches above the red line and let it grow- timeline this Nov or Feb (does it matter)?
2. also reduce branches from 4 to 2 at the first whorl - the green ones circled - this fall or feb next year?
3. for similar material- am I missing anything? It is strong and fed heavy this year.

I would plan for removing the main trunk above the first whorl (at some stage). This method gives us a good bend in the trunk as well as much needed taper in the main trunk. Keep one of the small side branches as the first branch. Does not need to be big because it will slowly develop as the new trunk line develops.
Note that I've also tilted the trunk a bit to get away from the vertical initial trunk line. If you prefer the more boring vertical trunk look then disregard the tilt.
As the new trunk develops make similar reduction cuts, gradually building a trunk with bends, taper and side branches. That's a longer term development program but should give you a superior bonsai.
You might choose to keep some of the upper trunk as a sacrifice branch for a couple of years to help thicken the lower trunk. You can still wire and bend the 2 chosen low branches while the top is still on.

OR
You can go for a quick and dirty styling. Use the existing trunk but remove most branches at whorls to get an alternating branch pattern along your trunk. That can be achieved in a couple of years but trunk and branches won't have much taper or desirable shape.

Pine 2- normal scots pine
Plan-
1. main trunk chop in Nov/Dec above red line or all side branches above the red line same timeline? only keep the two branches below the line
2.can we use the circled green small branches as future branches
3. what do we do with the whorl - reverse tapper - carving can solve it? or any other methods?

I would see those small shoots near the base as the future tree.
The trunk section above those is straight, boring and no taper. You also have that problem with reverse taper at the first whorl. Sometimes reverse taper can be disguised by carving but with the trunk below I do not think it worth the effort.
The little shoots probably won't grow much while the upper part of the tree is strong. You may need to cut some branches to encourage the tree to put some effort into those reserve shoots but don't cut it all off. Most of the main trunk is acting as a sacrifice branch helping to thicken the lower trunk. I'd probably remove some of the side upper branches that might be shading the little shoots. Just leave a few way up the top for now.

 

[Manbris]

I would plan for removing the main trunk above the first whorl (at some stage). This method gives us a good bend in the trunk as well as much needed taper in the main trunk. Keep one of the small side branches as the first branch. Does not need to be big because it will slowly develop as the new trunk line develops.
Note that I've also tilted the trunk a bit to get away from the vertical initial trunk line. If you prefer the more boring vertical trunk look then disregard the tilt.
As the new trunk develops make similar reduction cuts, gradually building a trunk with bends, taper and side branches. That's a longer term development program but should give you a superior bonsai.
You might choose to keep some of the upper trunk as a sacrifice branch for a couple of years to help thicken the lower trunk. You can still wire and bend the 2 chosen low branches while the top is still on.

OR
You can go for a quick and dirty styling. Use the existing trunk but remove most branches at whorls to get an alternating branch pattern along your trunk. That can be achieved in a couple of years but trunk and branches won't have much taper or desirable shape.


I would see those small shoots near the base as the future tree.
The trunk section above those is straight, boring and no taper. You also have that problem with reverse taper at the first whorl. Sometimes reverse taper can be disguised by carving but with the trunk below I do not think it worth the effort.
The little shoots probably won't grow much while the upper part of the tree is strong. You may need to cut some branches to encourage the tree to put some effort into those reserve shoots but don't cut it all off. Most of the main trunk is acting as a sacrifice branch helping to thicken the lower trunk. I'd probably remove some of the side upper branches that might be shading the little shoots. Just leave a few way up the top for now.

Thanks a lot Shibui- do we have an optimal time-mid/late autumn or late/early winter to do these cuttings for pines? (keeping the main branch as sacrifice branch and shorten some size branches)

First the first tree- is it ok to keep 2 chosen branches or should we only use one at the first whorl?

 

[Manbris]

Took a better pic of branches at the first whorl - we would keep the one with best branch structure right? such as the one circled in green. But it already seems to be a large branch do we need to only keep this one at whorl or we could be flexible to also include another one to be open for branch selection later on? in this kind of situation how many do we keep? I used a wire to pull two large branches down to the basket to create space.

For this tree is it worth to try the alternative method you mentioned - I can see an alternating branch just below the second whorl. But not sure how to create an apex with this branch.

Do we have a rule for how many greens we can take off a year? 1/3?



Also do we keep the little branch such as the one grow under a branch but closer to the trunk? the red one

 

[Shibui]

There is never just one way to develop a bonsai. I suspect that all the options you have suggested will work out in the end.
The advantage of those small branches under/ close to a larger branch is that they develop slowly so not big, bare sections and much closer ramification = much better bonsai structure. I'll often leave one of those to develop slowly until it is big enough then remove the competing branch.

I can see an alternating branch just below the second whorl. But not sure how to create an apex with this branch.

We often cannot make a tree in one go. Good bonsai is a long term project rather than an instant conversion. I always try to look 3, 5 or more years ahead so a small branch can grow and develop into an entire trunk and apex, even if it's not much now.

Thanks a lot Shibui- do we have an optimal time-mid/late autumn or late/early winter to do these cuttings for pines? (keeping the main branch as sacrifice branch and shorten some size branches)

I work on pines when they need it or when I have time. I don't think time of year has much impact, other than it may take a little longer to see a response if pruning in late autumn or winter.

First the first tree- is it ok to keep 2 chosen branches or should we only use one at the first whorl?

This is usually my initial approach. Keeping a second side branch as insurance can be useful though I wouldn't usually keep 2 larger branches.

Do we have a rule for how many greens we can take off a year? 1/3?

I don't follow rules much. Remove 1/3 is no problem. 2/3 is usually OK when the tree is healthy.

Took a better pic of branches at the first whorl - we would keep the one with best branch structure right? such as the one circled in green. But it already seems to be a large branch do we need to only keep this one at whorl or we could be flexible to also include another one to be open for branch selection later on? in this kind of situation how many do we keep?

Best structure yes but best structure may not be the biggest or most side branches. Sometimes best structure for bonsai is shorter spaces.
Larger branches contribute most to thickening. Keeping 2 large branches will probably cause local thickening to continue. 1 large and 1 small is probably OK if you want to keep an alternative for choice of branch selection later or to maintain sanity. With experience you should be more comfortable making the choices right off.

 

[Manbris]

There is never just one way to develop a bonsai. I suspect that all the options you have suggested will work out in the end.
The advantage of those small branches under/ close to a larger branch is that they develop slowly so not big, bare sections and much closer ramification = much better bonsai structure. I'll often leave one of those to develop slowly until it is big enough then remove the competing branch.

We often cannot make a tree in one go. Good bonsai is a long term project rather than an instant conversion. I always try to look 3, 5 or more years ahead so a small branch can grow and develop into an entire trunk and apex, even if it's not much now.


I work on pines when they need it or when I have time. I don't think time of year has much impact, other than it may take a little longer to see a response if pruning in late autumn or winter.


This is usually my initial approach. Keeping a second side branch as insurance can be useful though I wouldn't usually keep 2 larger branches.


I don't follow rules much. Remove 1/3 is no problem. 2/3 is usually OK when the tree is healthy.


Best structure yes but best structure may not be the biggest or most side branches. Sometimes best structure for bonsai is shorter spaces.
Larger branches contribute most to thickening. Keeping 2 large branches will probably cause local thickening to continue. 1 large and 1 small is probably OK if you want to keep an alternative for choice of branch selection later or to maintain sanity. With experience you should be more comfortable making the choices right off.

Thanks a lot Shibui.

How concerned should we be with reverse taper on pines in development phase? people say it will get better with time but I do not understand the process. How would it work? for the tree base to thicken over time. Is it mainly due to let the apical branch grow?

Probably more importantly, how many stages (in terms of roots reduction/pot size reduction - i.e., plant into the ground, nursery can, training pots, bonsai pots- how do we know what is appropriate at each stage for the tree) it will involve from growing a nursery seeding/young tree to a bonsai pot eventually? given how sensitive is conifer for root disturbance, what's your approach?

I might be asking too much questions- if there is any good threads please do point me to it.

 

[Shibui]

Never too many questions.
The problem is that there's no one way to achieve a result.
In my experience, inverse taper takes a very long time to grow out and often doesn't disappear so I try to avoid creating inverse taper in any parts I'm planning to use in the final tree. Need to be aware that not all of any current tree will be part of the final bonsai. Trunk chops are used extensively to reduce size, add taper, add bends and remove faults as the bonsai develops. That's why I'm more interested in the lowest part of the trunk and any low shoots or branches rather than looking at second or third whorls.

Lots of nuance and variables in developing any trees which means it can be hard to explain this way. It's much easier to show than to write. Not sure if you have the option to adopt a more experienced grower in your area. Bonsai clubs are a great resource for this sort of thing but beware of the 'instant experts' Every club has them so look for the quieter members who show great trees rather than those who talk loud.

 

[Manbris]

Never too many questions.
The problem is that there's no one way to achieve a result.
In my experience, inverse taper takes a very long time to grow out and often doesn't disappear so I try to avoid creating inverse taper in any parts I'm planning to use in the final tree. Need to be aware that not all of any current tree will be part of the final bonsai. Trunk chops are used extensively to reduce size, add taper, add bends and remove faults as the bonsai develops. That's why I'm more interested in the lowest part of the trunk and any low shoots or branches rather than looking at second or third whorls.

Lots of nuance and variables in developing any trees which means it can be hard to explain this way. It's much easier to show than to write. Not sure if you have the option to adopt a more experienced grower in your area. Bonsai clubs are a great resource for this sort of thing but beware of the 'instant experts' Every club has them so look for the quieter members who show great trees rather than those who talk loud.

Thanks a lot Shibui as always- it is great. Looks like we would need to trial and error for it to develop our own style. I will take it slow and try different things. Will keep an eye on the club - maybe in a few years time.