Need help with imidacloprid to water ratio...

[Bonsai Buddy]

Hi all! I just bought 1 gallon of Compare-N-Save systemic tree and shrub insect drench for my bonsais as I am beginning to have a bit of an adelgid infestation in a few of my trees. So far they have gotten into my mugo pine, lodgepole pine and bottlebrush. I sprayed my mugo and lodgepole pines with neem oil a couple of days ago and it seemed to help the lodgepole a bit but not the mugo. The mugo I just repotted a little over week or so ago in preparation for spring and because it was pretty pot bound, and then these strange bugs show up. Anyway I want to use the systemic insecticide above to knock them off hehe. The problem is this particular systemic product came with no such instructions for this sort of use... It has 1.47 percent imidacloprid, and the instructions say to use 1 oz per inch measured around the trunk at chest height in a gallon of water. So these instructions are obviously for good sized trees in the ground. I estimate that my fairly stout mugo pine would measure about 4.5-5 inches around the entire trunk but 5 oz of this stuff in a gallon seems like a lot for a bonsai. I'm thinking I should have bought the Bonide granular systemic which also has imidacloprid but less percentage 0.22 I believe. But this seemed like a better deal for the money, because the Bonide lasts 2 months per application and the Compare-N-Save drench lasts a year. Plus I thought the liquid drench would be safer for me as far as breathing it in because the granular looked sorta powdery. So I really do not know how much of this concentrate is safe for the tree to use. Does 5 ounces per gallon sound like a lot? I have never used this sort of insecticide, please help. Thanks very much in advance for any assistance!

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[Shibui]

I've never heard of imacloprid overdose in plants. The dose rates on the labels are pretty rubbery as all trees and plants have differing volume and shape so a measure of trunk circumference can't really measure volume of leaf, canopy or roots.
I have just checked some other similar strength brands. Doses and dilutions vary considerably depending on the plant and bug to be treated but I did find one rate (200g imacloprid /litre which works out at 20% concentrate) for trees in pots of 2.5ml (half teaspoon) per pot for trees up to 1m tall, mixed with enough water to water it into the soil. No sizes given for the pots or less spray for smaller trees.
The next rate is for azaleas - 3.5ml/ 250ml water per pot up to 20 litres pot capacity. That's a huge difference from small pots with small plants right up to the large 4 gallon pots.
For roses 3.5ml/2litres water per plant - no size for the plants.

You can see there is a wide variation in chemical to plant so it seems to indicate no real problem with overdose.
You could try a similar search for other brands with similar % of imacloprid and see if you can find some sort of consensus. or crunch the figures of the lower % brands to work out an equivalent mix for the stronger one you have. I believe the key is how much of the actual imacloprid goes on each tree so the actual amount of water it is mixed with is not really relevant. The water is just to carry the chemical.

 

[cbroad]

I use Bayer Advanced Tree and Shrub Protect and Feed, it has .74% Imidacloprid as the active ingredient.




If you look at my label, it has rates for containerized plants. 1 2/3 tablespoons per 5 gallons of water. If you look at my second pic, there's rates for each 1 gallon of water. Your product is almost twice as strong as mine, so maybe use yours at half strength? I don't believe I get 12 months of protection with my product though.

A word of caution: Imidacloprid can kill bees. The active ingredient can transfer to pollen and kill pollinators. I either use it after my trees finish flowering or pinch the flower buds off before they can forage the flowers.

 

[cbroad]

there's rates for each 1 gallon of water.

My text is misleading, sorry... That's rates for container size, not amount of water.

Like Shibui said, that amount of water is just to carry the chemical. It says to use enough water to thoroughly saturate the soil.

Regardless, my pics should give you an idea of how much to add per container. Remember that your amount of the chemical is almost twice mine.

 

[Paradox]

I cant really help with regard to application percentages but I felt you should know that a systemic has a delayed reaction when applied.
It takes time for it to get taken up by the roots and incorporated into the tissues of the tree. I am not sure what that time frame is.
Systemics are best used as a preventative. If the critters on your trees now are doing damage, you might want to consider a spray that is applied directly to them to take care of it more quickly.

 

[cbroad]

It takes time for it to get taken up by the roots and incorporated into the tissues of the tree. I am not sure what that time frame is.

With my Bayer product, I have noticed next day results. I usually use it for canker worms and other caterpillar type pests, leaf hoppers, and probably most important: borers. I don't have much issue with aphids and scale, etc.

I have major issues with my purple leaf sand cherry every year with catepillars and have seen them disappear a day after applying it. If left unchecked, they would definitely devour my whole plant in a day or two.

Another word of caution: I have heard that using Imidacloprid for mites can cause a population explosion, so definitely don't use it if you suspect them.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

It takes time for it to get taken up by the roots and incorporated into the tissues of the tree. I am not sure what that time frame is.

Hours, usually. I was surprised by this at first, but after studying how fast auxins can be taken up from a medium and seeing how fast a plant can revive from a single dose of water.. I started to believe that this liquid-bound transport can be stunningly fast. Given that the plant is not dormant and that the "-cide" is water bound.

I've been looking through some material safety and data sheets to see if I can find out if I can work some numbers for you guys, but I'm throwing in the towel. I'm not going to do math with those backwards units of measurement for my own pleasure.

 

[Bonsai Buddy]

Thanks for all the great responses everyone! @Shibui I appreciate all the research you did for me. It's definitely confusing why the printed instructions are all over the place from brand to brand. @cbroad Thanks for posting pics of what you use. I just got in from watering my trees and went with 1 tablespoon for a gallon. So a bit more than half strength but close. I hope it works out. The gallon was enough for three of my trees, so I'll see how they do before I make more. Thanks again guys!

 

[Jzack605]

I use Xytec on landscape plants both as a soil drench and foliage application which is 21.4% ai of imidicloprid. For soil applications I make applications at a rate of 80oz per 100gal and there is a certain amount you are supposed to apply per DBH which escapes me at the moment. This is typically for adelgid, Leafminer, aphid and borers.

there IS such thing as overdoing it and the results are typically shown as a mite outbreak. We typically make applications at 2 year intervals to avoid this. It’s not actually labeled for control of mites because it has this undesirable side effect.

 

[Jzack605]

FYI imidicloprid is not effective on mites if that is a target pest.