My first Bonsai. Aleppo Pine, from seed. Guidance going forward

[Esolin]

It's growing fast!

The only thing I would suggest at this point is to try not to lose anymore interior growth. It looks like you cleaned out not only the brown needles but also all of the remaining short green needles and maybe even some of the small green shoots and side branches that had started. It's very difficult to get backbudding on a pine if there are no green needles remaining in the area. On a young pine like yours, I've seen it happen on bare wood without a green needle present to produce the new growth, but usually once you lose that interior green, you can't get it back without grafting. If all the green needles are only on the tips of really long branches, it gives a tree a weird pompom topiary look that doesn't appear natural.

Think about how tall you want your bonsai to eventually be, and how thick you want the trunk. Then plan accordingly. Pine bonsai look very ugly before they looks beautiful. That's because very specific techniques are used to manipulate their growth. Here you can see how professional bonsai nurseries do it:

Visit to Telperion Farms - Bonsai Tonight

Plants love Oregon - 100 wholesale nurseries can't be wrong. Many of these nurseries focus on conifers - and at least one grows bonsai exclusively: Telperion

bonsaitonight.com

You want to keep your lower branches tight in near the trunk and full of green growth. Otherwise by the time your trunk is nice and thick, all the low branches you want to keep will be too long and out of proportion to mimic a tiny tree. Also check out this video. It's about junipers, but the design concept of keeping short branches is the same across all evergreen bonsai, including pines. With pines it's even more important since back budding is harder to get.

Hope that helps.

 

[Bejzu]

Yes you are right. I cleaned out the interior needles which were all brown. There were some shoots with brown needles I removed too. I reckoned they were overcrowded and not getting any sun. But I understand your comments which make a lot of sense. I think this species is a lot more difficult to work with at least for a beginner like me.

 

[Esolin]

It's true: pines in general are a harder species to manage as bonsai. I'm a novice as well. There are a few folks here that are masters with pines that could offer better advice, although not a lot of people work extensively with Aleppo pines. If there are any pine bonsai experts near you in a club, ask questions and learn from them. A well done pine looks amazing, but it takes years of practice to learn all the tips and tricks to get the results you want. Don't get discouraged. With more study and practice, you also can become a pine master. Just read and watch as much teaching material as you can about growing pines for bonsai. Even then it will take some trial and error. I still make plenty of mistakes. You never stop learning. But the more you learn, the more confident you get and the better your trees will look. Your tree can still be an amazing bonsai someday.

 

[Bejzu]

Thanks for your comments. Helpful as always. I'm sure to keep at it. But yes, compared to some dwarf jade's I'm working on, Aleppo pine is A LOT harder to manage.

 

[Bejzu]

So. Fast forward a couple years and I seem to feel this tree is a tad too advanced for a newbie like me. So left it do whatever for a year or so. Today I decided to pluck out old needles and clean it up a bit. But have absolutely no idea what to do with this.

I feel like the bottom branches are too long and bare. Hoping it will back bud a little. No idea how to wire and keep natural look

Here are some pictures. While feeling clueless, I haven't lost faith completely yet that I can turn this into something so any tips, help and advice would be greatly appreciated for

 

[Bejzu]

Another picture in addition to last reply.

 

[Esolin]

Bonsai always look ugly before they look beautiful. Often for years. Yes, it would've been nice if more interior growth had remained since it would mean less work for you in the future, but I think grafting in pines is somewhat inevitable. At some point, even the best maintained pines get a little leggy and need some 'help' backbudding, in the form of grafting new growth closer to the trunk.

Just keep playing with this tree. Use it as a chance to learn and gain experience. And keep researching pine techniques in general. As it grows it will develop some bark on the trunk, and then you can take some scions from the branch tips and graft them in tighter on the branches. That will bring things into proportion and drastically improve its appearance, but like I said, bonsai in development look ugly for a while. It's a necessary step. You can still do a lot with this tree in the future. Study up on grafting and start practicing. If it doesn't backbud on it's own, you'll want to start applying some to the lower branches in the next few years.

 

[Bejzu]

Thanks for the motivation. I was surprised to see some back budding show up recently which have me some encouragement. I hope that continues.

 

[Esolin]

I stumbled across this article today. I found it informative on developing Aleppos.

Notes on Aleppo pine bonsai - Bonsai Tonight

My experience with Aleppo pine is limited. Beyond pruning nursery stock for several years, I have yet to train one as bonsai.

bonsaitonight.com

 

[catfish chapstick]

I've been growing one aleppo pine now for about 6 years. it backbuds readily and isn't too fussy about soil or water or even light, it seems.

I have mine currently in 100% akadama. Aleppo pine is way different from Japanese black pine. These are the only two pines I grow

 

[Bejzu]

I've been growing one aleppo pine now for about 6 years. it backbuds readily and isn't too fussy about soil or water or even light, it seems.

I have mine currently in 100% akadama. Aleppo pine is way different from Japanese black pine. These are the only two pines I grow

I was worried it would not bud back so easily but this summer I am really surprised. I'm doing absolutely nothing to my aleppo except water and feed it and its budding back way faster then I expected. However I am still perplexed as to how to handle/style/prune in general. For me, it seems alot more difficult compared to easier beginner trees like ports or ficus

 

[Bejzu]

Some poor pictures cause it's dark

 

[catfish chapstick]

³

I was worried it would not bud back so easily but this summer I am really surprised. I'm doing absolutely nothing to my aleppo except water and feed it and its budding back way faster then I expected. However I am still perplexed as to how to handle/style/prune in general. For me, it seems alot more difficult compared to easier beginner trees like ports or ficus

I'm not too sure about styling either. My trunk is not heavy so I originally thought literati but I'm basically just trying to create pads and wiring down lateral branches. Also, I keep my trimmed to the point that I only see juvenile foliage.

 

[Bejzu]

³

I'm not too sure about styling either. My trunk is not heavy so I originally thought literati but I'm basically just trying to create pads and wiring down lateral branches. Also, I keep my trimmed to the point that I only see juvenile foliage.

You seem to have a plan. I see you prune branches at the trunk. I think I need to do this too. Do you pluck all the mature needles then? I have a lot at the moment.

 

[catfish chapstick]

You seem to have a plan. I see you prune branches at the trunk. I think I need to do this too. Do you pluck all the mature needles then? I have a lot at the moment.

I've tried different things. now I just prune regularly and even go so far as to cut the longer needles to match the shorter ones. The plant doesn't seem to mind. It seems good at putting on foliage but slower to develop roots. Generally, when I repot I dont cut much if any roots. If you cut back hard on yours I think you'll get an explosive response. Some of your branches are a bit long for styling a thin pine. You could leave a low sacrifice branch or something... You could also cut back a couple branches to a point of no foliage. sometimes it will still produce buds on bare wood, depending on vigor.

 

[Bejzu]

I've tried different things. now I just prune regularly and even go so far as to cut the longer needles to match the shorter ones. The plant doesn't seem to mind. It seems good at putting on foliage but slower to develop roots. Generally, when I repot I dont cut much if any roots. If you cut back hard on yours I think you'll get an explosive response. Some of your branches are a bit long for styling a thin pine. You could leave a low sacrifice branch or something... You could also cut back a couple branches to a point of no foliage. sometimes it will still produce buds on bare wood, depending on vigor.

Trimming long mature needles tend to get brown tips in my case. And their colour is normally a lighter green then juvenile needles.

When you say if I cut back hard I would get explosive response, what do you mean?

Yes am aware of long branches of mine. Trying to thicken the trunk if possible. Will eventually prune some.

 

[catfish chapstick]

Trimming long mature needles tend to get brown tips in my case. And their colour is normally a lighter green then juvenile needles.

When you say if I cut back hard I would get explosive response, what do you mean?

Yes am aware of long branches of mine. Trying to thicken the trunk if possible. Will eventually prune some.

I just mean the tree will throw out new branches wherever you cut, sometimes too many

 

[Esolin]

When you say if I cut back hard I would get explosive response, what do you mean?

Catfish means this:


When you cut back to only one little bit of foliage, most young and vigorous Mediterranean pines tend to respond with tons of bushy growth right there.

Can you cut back further and leave NO NEEDLES on a branch and have it grow more? This is SUPER risky.

On young pines like yours, there's maybe a 50% chance it might still push a dormant bud somewhere and the branch will stay alive. But on mature trees/most conifer species, doing this 99% kills the branch. That's why it's so important to keep some needles/short branches growing at the base of a branch that you are thickening by growing long. You can only shorten a pine branch to the inner most bit of green on it. So if ALL your green is only at the TIPS of your branches, you cannot shorten the branches without them dying. UNLESS you graft and artificially create 'new green' near the trunk to keep the branch alive when you cut off all the leggy tip foliage.

 

[Bejzu]

Catfish means this:

View attachment 606699
When you cut back to only one little bit of foliage, most young and vigorous Mediterranean pines tend to respond with tons of bushy growth right there.

Can you cut back further and leave NO NEEDLES on a branch and have it grow more? This is SUPER risky.

On young pines like yours, there's maybe a 50% chance it might still push a dormant bud somewhere and the branch will stay alive. But on mature trees/most conifer species, doing this 99% kills the branch. That's why it's so important to keep some needles/short branches growing at the base of a branch that you are thickening by growing long. You can only shorten a pine branch to the inner most bit of green on it. So if ALL your green is only at the TIPS of your branches, you cannot shorten the branches without them dying. UNLESS you graft and artificially create 'new green' near the trunk to keep the branch alive when you cut off all the leggy tip foliage.

Super Reply!!! This explains a lot for me. Now I can make a plan!