My Chinese Elm needs help

[Wjriebel]

Hi everyone,

I’m coming on here as I continue to search for ways to revive my Chinese elm. It’s getting worse and worse and I’m trying to be as diligent as possible. I have been trying to grow it indoors since fall started and I have it in a room with a bright ac infinity grow light, humidifier, and small fan, and I just cannot get it right, it seems like it is on its last leg and I’m in desperate need of help. I have had spells where it seemed to be doing good again but then I questioned it and tried to tweak the schedule and it declined more.

A lot has happened since I’ve brought it indoors and I can tell you about it more if you would like to know but most recently for example I was watering on a two day basis and I noticed it was buding new leaves but then they would eventually fall off. I decided to try and go a little bit longer between watering 4-5 days, to see if the soil would properly dry out as previously it always seemed to be a little damp but I was following advice online to water it every two to three days. Looking back maybe I should have stuck with that. Now it has dropped nearly all its leaves and is not really showing new signs of growth. I’ve decided to go back to watering it every 2-3 days and I’m hoping it will show signs of recovery but I’m starting to lose hope. Please if anyone has helpful advice I would love hear it. I feel like there is something inherently wrong with my setup but I really can’t determine what it is.

Thanks,
Joey

 

[Vince Sartain]

Hello Wjriebel, welcome!

#1 Where are you located and what is your zone?
#2 This tree will tolerate short stints indoors during the winter months but really should be kept outdoors in a sunny location if the weather isn't extremely cold (<32F).
#3 The tree will use very little water if it does not have any leaves to transpirate that water.
#4 If the soil is continually staying damp It should more than likely need to be re-potted into a more porous soil mix that will drain well with every watering. Better if done in the early spring as the buds begin to swell.

 

[Wjriebel]

Hello Wjriebel, welcome!

#1 Where are you located and what is your zone?
-- Peoria, Illinois, USA
#2 This tree will tolerate short stints indoors during the winter months but really should be kept outdoors in a sunny location if the weather isn't extremely cold (<32F).
-- the temperature in its current space is probably around 65-70.
#3 The tree will use very little water if it does not have any leaves to transpirate that water.
-- ok, good to know.
#4 If the soil is continually staying damp It should more than likely need to be re-potted into a more porous soil mix that will drain well with every watering. Better if done in the early spring as the buds begin to swell.
-- what do you recommend I do for the time being? Should I just let it be (no more watering) until spring and move it out from under the grow light?

 

[rockm]

STOP WATERING ON A SET SCHEDULE. learn when the TREE needs water not when YOU think it does. Overwatering, bad soil and indoor care are the unholy trinity for new bonsai owners. Throw in paying WAAAAAY to much attention in general and not to the things that really require attention is also an issue

The soil is where almost all bonsai problems originate. From what I can see your soil is compacted and slow draining both bad things. The impact of bad soil and wrong care begins there and moves up the tree. What you’re seeing from what I can tell is related overwatering which has rotted the roots. That results in leaf drop as the roots can’t move water up to supply them. The other issue is very low light - artificial light definitely helps but unless you have industrial strength grow lights and an entire room with humidity levels above 50 percent indoor growing is stressful for the tree

The tree started pushing recovery growth. Which is great. It meant soil and root had reached some kind of equilibrium but it was overtaken by erratic watering from what I can see

Bottom line learn when THE TREE NEEDS water. That mean knowing the moisture level INSIDE AND BENEATH the root mass. Chopstick method can help (do a search here on the term)

Also taking a step back and exercising some “benign neglect” ( which is doing nothing but being watchful without being anxious) can also give the tree some time to recover

Also (and this isn’t a jab at you) if you understand this tree could die on you, it can provide some freedom of thought. letting it go I your mind can sometime free up more rational thoughts on the what can be done

Don’t be discouraged. Everyone here has lost and/or killed trees. Those that say they haven’t aren’t being honest. Caring for bonsai has an initially steep learning curved. Watering is the hardest thing to learn. Keeeping bonsai indoors complicates all this exponentially. NExt spring think about trying “outdoor” species. They’re easier and not as fussy. Outdoors 24/7/365chinese elm are among the easiest and fastest developing species for bonsai

 

[Wjriebel]

Also just want to note that the soil mix is only 8 months old and contains a mix of organic and inorganic. It seems to drain very fast when I water it, If I fill the space around the base with water it will only sit for a second or so before flowing through and out the bottom..

 

[Wjriebel]

STOP WATERING ON A SET SCHEDULE. learn when the TREE needs water not when YOU think it does. Overwatering, bad soil and indoor care are the unholy trinity for new bonsai owners. Throw in paying WAAAAAY to much attention in general and not to the things that really require attention is also an issue

The soil is where almost all bonsai problems originate. From what I can see your soil is compacted and slow draining both bad things. The impact of bad soil and wrong care begins there and moves up the tree. What you’re seeing from what I can tell is related overwatering which has rotted the roots. That results in leaf drop as the roots can’t move water up to supply them. The other issue is very low light - artificial light definitely helps but unless you have industrial strength grow lights and an entire room with humidity levels above 50 percent indoor growing is stressful for the tree

The tree started pushing recovery growth. Which is great. It meant soil and root had reached some kind of equilibrium but it was overtaken by erratic watering from what I can see

Bottom line learn when THE TREE NEEDS water. That mean knowing the moisture level INSIDE AND BENEATH the root mass. Chopstick method can help (do a search here on the term)

Also taking a step back and exercising some “benign neglect” ( which is doing nothing but being watchful without being anxious) can also give the tree some time to recover

Also (and this isn’t a jab at you) if you understand this tree could die on you, it can provide some freedom of thought. letting it go I your mind can sometime free up more rational thoughts on the what can be done

Don’t be discouraged. Everyone here has lost and/or killed trees. Those that say they haven’t aren’t being honest. Caring for bonsai has an initially steep learning curved. Watering is the hardest thing to learn. Keeeping bonsai indoors complicates all this exponentially. NExt spring think about trying “outdoor” species. They’re easier and not as fussy. Outdoors 24/7/365chinese elm are among the easiest and fastest developing species for bonsai

Thank you for your feedback!

To give you a little more information, the soil is a mix of organic & inorganic and drains to my understanding relatively fast (if I fill the top with water it drains through and out the bottom within only a few seconds). The light I have is an AC Infinity IONFRAME EVO4, which should be more than enough light (as I understand). I also have a whole room humidifier running near constantly around 50- 60% humidity.

Also thank you for suggesting the chopstick method but I have a question/concern with that. A couple weeks ago the bonsai was pushing out decent new growth but I noticed the leaves were falling off eventually and then it would sprout new growth somewhere else. This seemed abnormal to me so my thought was I was overwatering-- also because I checked the soil with a chopstick for 4-5 days and it was damp throughout all of it, so after a little bit less than a week of letting it sit I finally decided to water it, and that has led me to what you're seeing now. My issue is I'm not seeing a direct correlation/causation to its stress. It seems as though all the indicators would suggest overwatering but when I let it dry out, it loses all its progress/growth and now I'm scrambling to try and figure out how to just keep it alive.

Thanks in advance,
Joey

 

[Zac]

Listen to the advise you are getting these folks are awesome and know what they are talking about. But they aren't there to see it personally so they are going on what you say. I keep my chineese elm outside all year heeled in for the winter temps get and stay bellow freezing here big part of the winter. Leave the chopstick in all the time. I place mine in the inner rootball. If it's wet don't water if it's damp water. Like @rockm said and just check everyday but don't stress over it. Bonsai is supposed to be fun and enjoyable. Search on here about root rot there's good info and a water and peroxide mixture can water tree with the to get oxygen back into the soil and help get rid of the roting roots. I've used it in the past to save a tree.

 

[rockm]

Thank you for your feedback!

To give you a little more information, the soil is a mix of organic & inorganic and drains to my understanding relatively fast (if I fill the top with water it drains through and out the bottom within only a few seconds). The light I have is an AC Infinity IONFRAME EVO4, which should be more than enough light (as I understand). I also have a whole room humidifier running near constantly around 50- 60% humidity.

Also thank you for suggesting the chopstick method but I have a question/concern with that. A couple weeks ago the bonsai was pushing out decent new growth but I noticed the leaves were falling off eventually and then it would sprout new growth somewhere else. This seemed abnormal to me so my thought was I was overwatering-- also because I checked the soil with a chopstick for 4-5 days and it was damp throughout all of it, so after a little bit less than a week of letting it sit I finally decided to water it, and that has led me to what you're seeing now. My issue is I'm not seeing a direct correlation/causation to its stress. It seems as though all the indicators would suggest overwatering but when I let it dry out, it loses all its progress/growth and now I'm scrambling to try and figure out how to just keep it alive.

Thanks in advance,
Joey

I don’t know where you’re getting your advice but uh uh. “More than enough light”. Probably not. At least It ain’t full outdoor sunlight. And it’s not outdoors with stiff air circulation and accompanying humidity. Also you realize that this is winter and elm tend to drop leaves and slow down on growth. Longer lighting hours won’t do much and can inhibit growth since plants need a period of darkness to complete photosynthesis. As for the soil. The pic is blurry but it looks over saturated and kind of heavy— typical of mass produced mallsai. Take a better pic of the soil and we can talk

If you’re getting advice from a bonsai store that sells primarily Chinese elm and tropical species bonsai in large quantities be aware that many if not most of those kinds of sellers know very very little about actually caring for bonsai. They’re salespeople. They move product. They’re not really experts.

 

[Treelord]

Indoors??? Someone fetch the rope..

jokes aside, what @rockm says to the letter.
This forum has amazing knowledge about bonsai

 

[oranjeaap]

That light should be sufficient if the tree is straight under it.
However, it might still be less light than it would get outdoors, so that might trigger some kind of dormancy that could explain the leaves dropping.
Mine (outside) is just starting to drop some leaves right now and we're almost at the shortest day of the year.
Fans are dangerous, they can cause plants and trees to dry out rapidly. They can be essential in growth tents, but possibly even counterproductive in a normal room.
Chinese Elm should be easy: As much light as you can give it, water when it needs it and fertilizer on a schedule you can find online. This goes for both indoor and outdoor. They can handle short periods of drought quite well so in case of doubt better water it a day late than a day early.
If this one was grown in a region that gets frosty nights in winter it might simply not like being in a 70f room in winter.

 

[oranjeaap]

double post

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Nothing to add. I keep my c. elms outside year round. I dont bring them in. Dont usually have any problems.

You might think your soil is "free draining" but thr organics could compact, forcing water around the soil, not through it. Water when the soil is dry 1/3 of the way down in the soil.

Indoors is tough, if not impossible, for outdoor species.

I think its toast. Consider a ficus for a bulletproof indoor in winter outdoor in summer tree.

Good luck!

 

[pcrisp]

Hi everyone,

I’m coming on here as I continue to search for ways to revive my Chinese elm. It’s getting worse and worse and I’m trying to be as diligent as possible. I have been trying to grow it indoors since fall started and I have it in a room with a bright ac infinity grow light, humidifier, and small fan, and I just cannot get it right, it seems like it is on its last leg and I’m in desperate need of help. I have had spells where it seemed to be doing good again but then I questioned it and tried to tweak the schedule and it declined more.

A lot has happened since I’ve brought it indoors and I can tell you about it more if you would like to know but most recently for example I was watering on a two day basis and I noticed it was buding new leaves but then they would eventually fall off. I decided to try and go a little bit longer between watering 4-5 days, to see if the soil would properly dry out as previously it always seemed to be a little damp but I was following advice online to water it every two to three days. Looking back maybe I should have stuck with that. Now it has dropped nearly all its leaves and is not really showing new signs of growth. I’ve decided to go back to watering it every 2-3 days and I’m hoping it will show signs of recovery but I’m starting to lose hope. Please if anyone has helpful advice I would love hear it. I feel like there is something inherently wrong with my setup but I really can’t determine what it is.

Thanks,
Joey View attachment 623445View attachment 623446

I am relatively new to growing Bonsai, so bear that in mind when you read this. Over or under watering does seem to be the main cause of some of my trees dying in the past. Now, I use a layer of shredded sphagnum moss (or moss) on the surface of the soil and I only water when that layer of sphagnum moss is nearly dry (broadleaves) or dry (conifers). This does assume that your soil mix drains well. This seems to be working for me (temperate climate on the edge of subtropical). If root rot has already set in, I am not sure what best approach would be.

 

[pcrisp]

I am relatively new to growing Bonsai, so bear that in mind when you read this. Over or under watering does seem to be the main cause of some of my trees dying in the past. Now, I use a layer of shredded sphagnum moss (or moss) on the surface of the soil and I only water when that layer of sphagnum moss is nearly dry (broadleaves) or dry (conifers). This does assume that your soil mix drains well. This seems to be working for me (temperate climate on the edge of subtropical). If root rot has already set in, I am not sure what best approach would be.

Other considerations: you could check the pH of the soil - AI suggests 6.0 to 7.5 as the optimal range. The condition of the water that you are using could be a problem. For example, if there is a high chlorine content, then let it sit in a watering can for at least 24 hours before using. High levels of dissolved solids (like calcium) - here is an article to read: https://crataegus.com/2016/06/13/another-essential-to-plant-health-water-hardness/