Misting newly-collected yamadori bark? (to encourage back-budding)

[SU2]

It just occurred to me to ask if anyone else does this, or if this is a bad idea of some reason...

I'm really into yamadori and, often, a specimen is completely w/o foliage and needs to back-bud (after being hard-chopped at collection time) I started doing this misting thing with my bougies, after noticing how soft their bark is / can be - I got to thinking that, when a yamadori is in the stage of no-foliage and you're waiting for buds, that it's beneficial to be misting, I've just had this feeling that frequently softening the hard bark that the buds have to push-through has gotta make it easier for them... how much so, I've got no idea - but misting takes no time and is kind of enjoyable so I've just been tending to do it with trees when they're in the no-foliage state!

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated

 

[rockm]

It's a bit late to be collecting anything...Depends on the kind of tree. I have never had the need or the inclination to keep bark wet to soften it up. I've collected elm, beech, cherry, wisteria, blackhaw, blueberry, hornbeam, etc. over the years.

I'd also say you could be setting the tree up for fungal problems when new shoots appear too. Wet typically equals bad.

 

[Victorim]

I agree. Keeping wet more than what the elements give is unnecessary and probably just inviting problems.

Saying that though we've had a rainy week or so here in the Welsh valleys and a newly collected Hawthorne, and an oak that's being sitting for months doing nothing are now well on the move.. but then my dog has been licking his nuts more that usual so could be to do with that.. see what I'm saying?

 

[Zach Smith]

It just occurred to me to ask if anyone else does this, or if this is a bad idea of some reason...

I'm really into yamadori and, often, a specimen is completely w/o foliage and needs to back-bud (after being hard-chopped at collection time) I started doing this misting thing with my bougies, after noticing how soft their bark is / can be - I got to thinking that, when a yamadori is in the stage of no-foliage and you're waiting for buds, that it's beneficial to be misting, I've just had this feeling that frequently softening the hard bark that the buds have to push-through has gotta make it easier for them... how much so, I've got no idea - but misting takes no time and is kind of enjoyable so I've just been tending to do it with trees when they're in the no-foliage state!

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated

There's really no evidence that keeping the bark wet promotes budding through hard bark. In fact, if you look closely enough you'll see that buds arise in fissures in the bark, rather that bursting through the bark. Meaning the bark isn't a monolithic covering at all, but has some spaces that aren't so barky. The other thing to bear in mind is that a swelling bud produces a tremendous amount of hydraulic force, allowing it to make its way toward the light. The source of life, as it were.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I always mist newly-collected trees, especially the bark, as often as I possibly can. I don't see anything wrong with keeping the trunk well-hydrated. I have seen better survival rates in junipers. I don't do it for backbudding though.

 

[SU2]

It's a bit late to be collecting anything...Depends on the kind of tree. I have never had the need or the inclination to keep bark wet to soften it up. I've collected elm, beech, cherry, wisteria, blackhaw, blueberry, hornbeam, etc. over the years.

I'd also say you could be setting the tree up for fungal problems when new shoots appear too. Wet typically equals bad.

I'm in FL ;D (not saying that there's not better/worse times for collection here, just that you absolutely can collect now (or in december) w/o wasting your time!)

Those trees you've collected, could you do me a huge favor and tell me which (if any) could handle aggressive trunk-chopping? Especially chopping to below any foliage, although any that can handle being chopped to their lowest branch would still be of huge interest to me! (am very ignorant about what species I can / cannot expect to handle aggressive yamadori collecting!)

Re moisture I can see that happening, fwiw I don't go and spray at nighttime or anything, haven't had any issues of that sort yet (I am having such issues on some yamadori trunks but those aren't getting misted they're just soft bougie bark that's close to the substrate-surface and, constantly wicking moisture from my substrate, have gotten some molds growing - am overdue to get out there with a toothbrush and cup of vinegar!)

 

[SU2]

I agree. Keeping wet more than what the elements give is unnecessary and probably just inviting problems.

Saying that though we've had a rainy week or so here in the Welsh valleys and a newly collected Hawthorne, and an oak that's being sitting for months doing nothing are now well on the move.. but then my dog has been licking his nuts more that usual so could be to do with that.. see what I'm saying?

Lol I see what you're saying But I don't think it's coincidence, when it's a rainy week here the air feels like a greenhouse, makes sense that buds could swell/start shooting easier in a more humid enviro!

 

[SU2]

There's really no evidence that keeping the bark wet promotes budding through hard bark. In fact, if you look closely enough you'll see that buds arise in fissures in the bark, rather that bursting through the bark. Meaning the bark isn't a monolithic covering at all, but has some spaces that aren't so barky. The other thing to bear in mind is that a swelling bud produces a tremendous amount of hydraulic force, allowing it to make its way toward the light. The source of life, as it were.

Definitely knew there'd be no evidence (as I know nobody would've done actual studies on something so random!), was just something I came up with - thanks for replying, had never heard that (that the buds arise from fissures in the bark), am going to need to keep my magnifying glass out with my bonsai-gear tool-kit so I can check more on this - certainly don't doubt you am just curious to see it myself

 

[rockm]

I'm in FL ;D (not saying that there's not better/worse times for collection here, just that you absolutely can collect now (or in december) w/o wasting your time!)

Those trees you've collected, could you do me a huge favor and tell me which (if any) could handle aggressive trunk-chopping? Especially chopping to below any foliage, although any that can handle being chopped to their lowest branch would still be of huge interest to me! (am very ignorant about what species I can / cannot expect to handle aggressive yamadori collecting!)

Re moisture I can see that happening, fwiw I don't go and spray at nighttime or anything, haven't had any issues of that sort yet (I am having such issues on some yamadori trunks but those aren't getting misted they're just soft bougie bark that's close to the substrate-surface and, constantly wicking moisture from my substrate, have gotten some molds growing - am overdue to get out there with a toothbrush and cup of vinegar!)

I could do you that favor, but wouldn't do you any good. If you're in south Fla. you're not working with the species I am here in N. Va. However, just about any deciduous tree can be severely reduced to no foliage and hard root reduction. This is especially true of just about any species of elm and bald cypress.

and FWIW, I'd skip the misting. In fla. you have no problems with low humidity. Bark is already pretty moist. also FWIW, I've had elms, oaks, boxwood and other species with bark like an alligator push new buds with ease. It's NOT A PROBLEM. Trees do that kind of thing in the wild all the time. I really wouldn't worry about it. Fungal growth because of constantly wet condition is a bigger problem for new leaves and shoots than bark...

 

[Zach Smith]

Definitely knew there'd be no evidence (as I know nobody would've done actual studies on something so random!), was just something I came up with - thanks for replying, had never heard that (that the buds arise from fissures in the bark), am going to need to keep my magnifying glass out with my bonsai-gear tool-kit so I can check more on this - certainly don't doubt you am just curious to see it myself

It's worth examining closeup. I've spent a lot of time with a magnifying glass studying bud formation. It's really a fascinating phenomenon for tree lovers.

 

[sorce]

I had buckthorn buds emerge from plated bark this year...

First time I saw it in the garden.

Fascinating? Yes!

Sorce

 

[Zach Smith]

I had buckthorn buds emerge from plated bark this year...

First time I saw it in the garden.

Fascinating? Yes!

Sorce

That is cool. Path of least resistance?

 

[SU2]

I could do you that favor, but wouldn't do you any good. If you're in south Fla. you're not working with the species I am here in N. Va. However, just about any deciduous tree can be severely reduced to no foliage and hard root reduction. This is especially true of just about any species of elm and bald cypress.

and FWIW, I'd skip the misting. In fla. you have no problems with low humidity. Bark is already pretty moist. also FWIW, I've had elms, oaks, boxwood and other species with bark like an alligator push new buds with ease. It's NOT A PROBLEM. Trees do that kind of thing in the wild all the time. I really wouldn't worry about it. Fungal growth because of constantly wet condition is a bigger problem for new leaves and shoots than bark...

'Just about any'??? I'm not doubting you, I just had the complete opposite impression, I'd thought bougies and crepe myrtles were the exception to the rule (my first attempted yamadori was me hard-chopping my beautiful 6' ficus benjamina to a ~1.5" tall trunk with excellent nebari - thought it'd be incredible with a standard canopy on that trunk....then spent months watching it slowly die, despite having subsequently found out ficus benjamina do not back-bud from those types of hard-chops) If what I've been looking to crepes and bougies for applies to most-everything then that completely changes the game for me, I mean I just assumed - after my ficus incident - that a species had to be 'that type' that could handle it, I thought things like bougies/crepes were the outliers not the ficus b.!!

Seriously if you weren't exaggerating and bougies/crepes aren't anything special in terms of handling this type of collection then that changes *everything* for me!!

 

[SU2]

I had buckthorn buds emerge from plated bark this year...

First time I saw it in the garden.

Fascinating? Yes!

Sorce

Sorry but what's plated bark?

 

[SU2]

It's worth examining closeup. I've spent a lot of time with a magnifying glass studying bud formation. It's really a fascinating phenomenon for tree lovers.

omg thank you! I never thought to bring out my magnifying glass but I'm the same way, on almost every one of my trees I've got at least 1 spot of new growth I'm watching intently and am definitely going to start doing that! Have started carrying a 'bonsai tool/accessories tray' with me when going into the garden (clippers/tweezers/zip-ties/wire/etc) and it's going to have my magnifying glass now, kudos!!

 

[Bonsai Nut]

The single best way to get deciduous trees to backbud is to allow them to develop extensive strong roots, and then reduce the foliage. This is because the hormones that trigger bud development are primarily created in the roots, while the hormone auxin is primarily created in the branch tips (apical meristems). Auxin suppresses bud development, so when you remove the branch tips (and remove the auxin) you will trigger the tree to develop buds. Strong roots therefore provide water, nutrients, and hormones to trigger bud development, and the removal of auxin kicks the bud development process into high gear.

 

[Zach Smith]

omg thank you! I never thought to bring out my magnifying glass but I'm the same way, on almost every one of my trees I've got at least 1 spot of new growth I'm watching intently and am definitely going to start doing that! Have started carrying a 'bonsai tool/accessories tray' with me when going into the garden (clippers/tweezers/zip-ties/wire/etc) and it's going to have my magnifying glass now, kudos!!

I figure it's OCD behavior, but frankly it's never stopped being a thrill to spot those very tiny buds just forming. What I've found really interesting is that I always spot the new buds with the naked eye first. Then the magnifying glass comes out, and the hunt is on for that particular tree. Rarely does just one bud emerge, so spotting the others becomes a real treat.

 

[rockm]

'Just about any'??? I'm not doubting you, I just had the complete opposite impression, I'd thought bougies and crepe myrtles were the exception to the rule (my first attempted yamadori was me hard-chopping my beautiful 6' ficus benjamina to a ~1.5" tall trunk with excellent nebari - thought it'd be incredible with a standard canopy on that trunk....then spent months watching it slowly die, despite having subsequently found out ficus benjamina do not back-bud from those types of hard-chops) If what I've been looking to crepes and bougies for applies to most-everything then that completely changes the game for me, I mean I just assumed - after my ficus incident - that a species had to be 'that type' that could handle it, I thought things like bougies/crepes were the outliers not the ficus b.!!

Seriously if you weren't exaggerating and bougies/crepes aren't anything special in terms of handling this type of collection then that changes *everything* for me!!

Well, um. Ficus isn't a temperate zone deciduous species. It is a tropical, native to Australia and other tropical zones.

this is why collecting ISN'T a good place for beginners to start. Understanding the tree you're working with is VERY important. Before you dig or do drastic work, DO SOME RESEARCH.

Why haven't you researched Bougainvillea or crape myrtle? BTW, it's spelled CRAPE, not crepe--which is important for your search)..Information is pretty available here on this site and other places with a simple Google search.

Both species can take drastic reduction--especially the bougainvillea--even large sawed off trunk sections of this species with no roots will develop them if treated properly. Big vigorous vines like Bougies, wisteria and some other subtropical to temperate zone vine species are extremely tough and can take a lot of abuse.

Bougainvillea
https://adamaskwhy.com/2014/05/05/collecting-a-big-bougainvillea/
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/collected-bougainvillea.18088/
http://www.wigertsbonsai.com/bougainvillea-development/

Crape myrtle
https://adamaskwhy.com/2013/02/16/specimen-crepe-myrtle-progression/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIg2PsAqfDA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZzLGLT1nUQ

 

[SU2]

The single best way to get deciduous trees to backbud is to allow them to develop extensive strong roots, and then reduce the foliage. This is because the hormones that trigger bud development are primarily created in the roots, while the hormone auxin is primarily created in the apical meristems (ie branch tips). Auxin suppresses bud development, so when you remove the branch tips (and remove the auxin) you will trigger the tree to develop buds. Strong roots therefore provide water, nutrients, and hormones to trigger bud development, and the removal of auxin kicks the bud development process into high gear.

Wait wait, auxin is *created* in the bud tips? I thought it was primarily created in the roots and flowed upward, *concentrating in* the apical meristems (am going to need to re-read the wiki page on polar auxin transport, great refresher read!)

I'm also feeling pretty dumb here but I'll ask anyways- in trying to take practical advice from what you post here, it sounds like you're saying the right way to do this is 2-stepping it, like do the hard-chop while it's still in-ground with that big root system, and then, once it's grown-out and established a bit, then go excavate/transplant? (I imagine not vice-versa - I've done that way, where I take a yamadori that's got a lot of fresh, new growth - even with great roots there's always wilting, am always running-around defoliating more and more until it 'stabilizes' and the roots match the foliage. MUCH prefer to do it all at once ie excavate + hard-chopping all in one go and have had the most luck that way, though that's only really with 1 species (bougies)

 

[SU2]

I figure it's OCD behavior, but frankly it's never stopped being a thrill to spot those very tiny buds just forming. What I've found really interesting is that I always spot the new buds with the naked eye first. Then the magnifying glass comes out, and the hunt is on for that particular tree. Rarely does just one bud emerge, so spotting the others becomes a real treat.

haha I know this feeling all too well I actually got out my magnifying glass yesterday after reading your post, it's real cheap and has a plastic lense which was all scuffed-up, it was still neat using it but I'm definitely getting a better one now!

And yeah I always notice them by naked eye first, especially if I watered by hosing my plants or had misted them, when the bark is wet those little buds stand out so much more (like little tree-pimples lol!)

[edit- and yeah in addition to watching for purposes of interest you're right there's usually more than one, which isn't useful at all on a bonsai, so it's nice to watch a cluster of them become little shoots for a few days and then rip-off all but the strongest!!]